Bush: Whatever Torture Report Says Will Be Wrong
The full Senate torture report hasn’t been released yet, but former President George W. Bush knows it’s wrong, whatever it says.
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The report is said to assert that the C.I.A. misled Mr. Bush and his White House about the nature, extent and results of brutal techniques like waterboarding, and some of his former administration officials privately suggested seizing on that to distance themselves from the controversial program, according to people involved in the discussion. But Mr. Bush and his closest advisers decided that “we’re going to want to stand behind these guys,” as one former official put it.
Mr. Bush made that clear in an interview broadcast on Sunday. “We’re fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the C.I.A. serving on our behalf,” he told CNN’s Candy Crowley. “These are patriots and whatever the report says, if it diminishes their contributions to our country, it is way off base.”
These are “really good people and we’re lucky as a nation to have them,” he said.
[su_thin_right_skyscraper_ad]Former intelligence officials, seeking allies against the potentially damaging report, have privately reassured the Bush team in recent days that they did not deceive them and have lobbied the former president’s advisers to speak out publicly on their behalf. The defense of the program has been organized by former C.I.A. leaders like George J. Tenet and Gen. Michael V. Hayden, two former directors, and John E. McLaughlin, a former deputy C.I.A. director who also served as acting director…
A Senate official, who asked not to be named before the release of the report, said Sunday that its authors were saving their response to General Hayden, Mr. Rodriguez and others until the report was public so that they could review the facts they gathered and let Americans make up their own minds.
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According to those familiar with it, the 6,000-page report by the Senate Intelligence Committee takes a sharply critical view of the C.I.A.’s interrogation of terrorism suspects in the first years after the Sept. 11 attacks, questioning the efficacy of torture and revealing more details about the program. It also suggests C.I.A. officers in the field may have misled officials at headquarters.
tiredoftea December 8th, 2014 at 12:05 pm
I hate to say this, but I agree with W! It blames the CIA for torture without blaming himself, Darth Cheney, George Tenent, and the rest of the war criminals he gathered around him to avenge Poppy Bush.
granpa.usthai December 8th, 2014 at 12:56 pm
it were the CIA thing coupled with the recession thing and the war thing that caused it all? Maybe the world courts will have better success at freezing offshore bank accounts held by US Citizens than their own government is willing to do? After all, who wants to see not so innocent bankers sucked into the ‘war criminal/profiteer’ category and wind up having to live inside the US to keep from being arrested and taken before the world court?
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Schultz defense.
StoneyCurtisll December 8th, 2014 at 12:17 pm
As if the CIA did this all on their own….
Without orders or knowledge from above.
granpa.usthai December 8th, 2014 at 12:48 pm
shows the sloppiness of the GW Administrative capabilities. Kinda like Governor Christie hand selecting the group that shut down the bridges in political retribution, then hand picks a panel to completely clear him of any wrong doing. With a Republican controlled Legislative and Judicial Branch, the little cowardly weasel will no doubt weasel out of any personal responsibility. Der ‘master race’ is good about never accepting responsibility for their crimes against humanity.
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 3:28 am
The CIA was told the gloves were off, that legal restrictions would be thrown to the wind and were asked to get back to the administration with specifics and they did that.
It was largely railroaded through by Cheney and Addington, who also found John Yoo at OLC to write the legal opinions to base it upon. Cheney and Addington kept what they were doing secret from many in the administration and kept them out of meetings where the policy was discussed.
Contractors Mitchell & Jessen were brought in to administer it.
None of them ever bothered to ask the best experts in the field what works best. After all, isn’t that the goal? To use what gives the greatest success in interrogation? The best experts are trained, professional career interrogators, but I have never found where any were even asked their opinion when the whole thing was being set up.
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 9:04 am
You have it right Stoney!..
fahvel December 8th, 2014 at 12:38 pm
6000 pages to state that the cia or whoever waterboarded tormented with dogs degraded people and set electrodes on the very private parts seems excessive. “They tortured people who were never found guilty of anything and dick-n-geaorge supported it and sponsored it and should go to jail”
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:44 pm
George II will never travel to the Netherlands…
Suzanne McFly December 8th, 2014 at 1:02 pm
I agree, the CIA did not mislead bush and Cheney, the CIA was told to use these “techniques” by the bush White House.
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 9:03 am
I agree 100% I even wonder if this whole thing is designed to get Bush and cronies off the hook by blaming the CIA… Who I also think is guilty as sin..
StoneyCurtisll December 8th, 2014 at 1:36 pm
Hey Sean Hannity..
It’s your turn to prove that waterboading isnt torture..
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4187130.ece/alternates/s615/The-ice-bucket-waterboard-challenge-might-be-the-most-shocking-spin-off-idea-yet.png
Bunya December 8th, 2014 at 1:51 pm
Now, to be fair, Dick “5 VietNam deferments” Cheney turned down the opportunity to serve his country. Otherwise, if he had been in battle, he may have discovered that waterboarding is a lot more than a simple “splash on the face”.
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:43 pm
That’s not a boogie board??
alpacadaddy December 8th, 2014 at 4:14 pm
Darth Cheney had ‘other priorities’ (see Haliburton, MIC, no-bid contracts, war profiteering, nation building, and right-wing capitalism gone wrong)
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 9:01 am
BOOM!! You got that right!!
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 10:34 am
Your last point is illustrative of the contradiction in their argument.
On one hand they try to make it a mild bit of pressure, as if a mild bit of pressure is all that’s needed to make a hardened terrorist talk.
They run faster than Ussain Bolt from requests they cite credentialed, professional military interrogators – who happen to be the best experts on interrogation – who support their position.
I’m standing by with over 60 such professionals to quote who disagree.
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 3:17 am
I’ve been calling for Hannity to keep his word for years now.
StoneyCurtisll December 8th, 2014 at 1:42 pm
Looks like torture to me..
If not why do the victims have to be restrained?
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/4/43/Waterboard.jpg
Spirit of America December 8th, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Using that logic, then every person handcuffed during an arrest is being tortured.
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:48 pm
Depends on how tight
Spirit of America December 8th, 2014 at 2:52 pm
Not in this case though.
He doesn’t say the restraint is torture, he says if in restraint it is torture.
freethinker666 December 8th, 2014 at 5:23 pm
No he didn’t, if it is not torture, why are they restrained. learn to read.
Spirit of America December 8th, 2014 at 8:20 pm
Learn to understand. That is called an inference.
If this, then that.
Just because someone is restrained, does not mean it must be torture.
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 3:16 am
Learn to reason. He was saying restraints are used because what follows is torture. Your argument implies everyone put in handcuffs is also waterboarded.
If you think waterboarding is effective, produce trained, professional interrogators who endorses it as an effective way to get intelligence.
I have studied the field. In my notes I have quotes from over 60 professional interrogators who say otherwise.
These are the best experts on what works in interrogation.
Don’t you think we should use the most successful approaches?
Also, from the time colonists first came to these shores we have fought enemies that tortured prisoners. How many times can you name where we were defeated in battle because of intelligence an enemy tortured from an American prisoner?
Spirit of America December 9th, 2014 at 3:28 am
They use restraints when brought into the questioning room and sat down at the table in gitmo as well.
He said:
“Looks like torture to me..
If not why do the victims have to be restrained?”
That ‘if not’ part is telling. That sentence implies since restraints are used, it is torture. And that is an incorrect assumption.
When going through training, several groups of the usa get waterboarded, w/out restraints btw.
“I have studied the field. In my notes I have quotes from over 60 professional interrogators who say otherwise.”
If what you say is true, meaning you have studied the field, then you must first define ‘torture’, then what actions falls into that category of interrogation. Then after that, if thorough, you’ll find that there are different schools of thought. Questioning is 1/2 science, 1/2 art with many variables… the subject, the circumstances, the data going after, the interrogators, the immediacy, how much is already known, down to even the cadence of the questions.
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 8:59 am
I would love to see you ‘water-boarded’ Then ask you if it felt like you were drowning… tortured
Spirit of America December 9th, 2014 at 9:07 am
Wow don’t do it to the enemy, but you wish it, love to see it yet, upon someone you disagree with?
How ‘compassionate’ of you….or some would say, true colors.
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 9:26 am
OH stop it.. you have yet to answer any real questions.
“If you think water-boarding is effective, produce trained, professional
interrogators who endorses it as an effective way to get intelligence”
“When going through training, several groups of the USA get waterboarded, w/out restraints btw”
They also know it’s for training and they won’t be harmed… btw
You’re making a ridiculous argument, and ignoring facts… then you focus (far too much) on what he said (StoneyCurtis) rather than the answers given regarding what is torture etc.
Never mind… you just won’t EVER get it
Spirit of America December 9th, 2014 at 9:41 am
Gee, because what he said was the topic of my post.
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 10:15 am
He didn’t believe me when I said I’d studied the subject. Well, I just posted a description of waterboarding in training by an intelligence officer who was a SERE school instructor, who said they strapped the trainees down.
Another question he won’t answer because he can’t. I’ve read of at least 1 guy who got loose and attacked the waterboarders. Spirit of America doesn’t realize how violent it is.
He’s learning the hard way how foolish it is to try to bluff someone better informed than him.
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 11:03 am
Spirit of America is a waste of time… I appreciate the info you posted
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 9:29 am
You would rather express your righteous indignation than reply to any of the information given to you… a diversion if you ask me
Spirit of America December 9th, 2014 at 9:39 am
LOL, you didn’t ask me a question OR give data, you just wished I’d be water boarded!!!
good god some of the posts here…
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 9:08 am
You’re repeating John Yoo nonsense that has been discredited by numerous legal scholars.
The United States Code (NOTE: last updated January 8, 2004.) in Part I (Crimes), Chapter 113C (Torture),
Section 2340 contains critical definitions. “Torture” is defined to mean “an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control.” Severe mental pain or suffering means “the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (A) The intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses of the personality; (C) the threat of imminent death; or (D) the threat that another person will
imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.” The United States is defined to include “all areas under the jurisdiction of the United States including any of the places described in sections 5 and 7 of this title and section 46501 (2) of title 49.
– RESPONDING TO
TORTURE: SOME RELEVANT OBSERVATIONS By
Carl Q. Christol, Emeritus Professor, University of Southern California (16 July 2004)
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 11:56 am
Here’s a professional interrogator who commanded an interrogation unit in Afghanistan in 2002, talking about his training:
“But before we could get near any of those subjects, we had to pass a section on the Geneva and Hague Conventions. These were the bibles for interrogators, documents we had to know inside and out, and treat with a reverence that as sometimes hard for a group of hormonal young soldiers to muster …
… They ban torture, coercion, and punishment for prisoners who refuse to provide more than basic identification. We spent days reading the conventions aloud in class, passage by passage, and were tested on even the most obscure points. Even so, it was clear that after only a single reading which passages mattered most to future interrogators. The language practically jumped out at you: the prohibitions on “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture,” and on “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment”; the Article 13 stipulation that “prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence of intimidation and against insults and public curiosity”; and the simple requirement that “prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated.” ”
– THE INTERROGATORS Task Force 500 and America’s Secret War Against al Qaeda, by ChrisMackey and Greg Miller (Back Bay Books, 2004), pages 30-31
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 12:42 pm
Quotes below from the US ARMY INTELLIGENCE AND INTERROGATION
HANDBOOK The Official Guide on Prisoner Interrogation (Lyons Pres, 2005), and
here are abbreviations referred to in the text to follow:
UCMJ – Uniform Code of Military Justice
GWS – Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Wounded and Sick in Armed
Forces in the Field of August 12, 1949
GPW – Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of August
12, 1949
GC – Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time
of War of August 12, 1949
Let’s go to pages 9-10:
“… In conducting intelligence interrogations, the J2, G2, or S2 has primary staff responsibility to ensure these activities are performed in accordance with the GWS, GPW, and GC, as well as US policies regarding the treatment and handling of the above – mentioned persons.
The GWS, GPW, GC, and US policy expressly prohibit acts of violence or intimidation, including physical or mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to inhuman treatment as a means as an aid to interrogation.
Such illegal acts are not authorized and will not be condoned by the US Army. Acts in violation of these prohibitions are criminal acts punishable under the UCMJ….
“Experience indicates that the use of prohibited techniques is not necessary to gain the cooperation of interrogation sources. Use of torture and other illegal methods is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.
Revelation of use of torture by US personnel will bring discredit upon the US and its armed forces while undermining domestic and international support for the war effort. It also may place US and allied personnel in enemy hands at a greater risk of abuse by their captors. Conversely, knowing the enemy has abused US and allied PWs does not justify using methods of interrogation specifically prohibited by the GWS, GPW, or GC, and US policy …”
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 2:00 pm
The following is from the interrogation manual’s Appendix A, “Uniform Code of Military Justice
Extract,” it lists the following possible violations of the
UCMJ interrogators must avoid:
Article 80, Attempts
Article 81, Conspiracy
Article 93, Cruelty
Article 118, Murder
Article 119, Manslaughter
Article 124, Maiming
Article 127, Extortion
Article 128, Assault
Article 134, Homicide, negligent
Article 134, Misprision of a serious offense
Article 134, Soliciting another to commit an offense
Article 134, Threat, communicating
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 10:04 am
Please give details on those who were waterboarded without restraints. Please include sources.
Malcolm Nance was a SERE school instructor where American military personnel were waterboarded to prepare them for torture they could expect from our enemies.
He says they strapped the prisoners down.
He also says waterboarding is torture.
Question: “The defenders in this debate call it simulated drowning. You have taken issue with that.”
Nance: “There is nothing simulated about waterboarding at all. I mean come on. Do we have to whip out the Dominican’s torture manuals to go back and show you how really efficient waterboarding is done? Do I have to take you to the S-21 prison camp in Cambodia and show you a board as used by torturers? There is no simulation here. It’s controlled drowning. Water is entering your system. It can overload your ability to gag it out. It does enter your lungs when put through the process long enough. You can die on the waterboard if your team is inefficient or ineffective.
That’s why there is a doctor watching the procedure. That’s why you have a staff psychologist watching the procedure. That’s why the watch officer is carefully watching how you’re strapped in, evaluating how fast they can get you out. And when it’s time to come off, you’re unstrapped, and then you get your opportunity to puke up your guts and move on.
But there is nothing simulated about this. And it’s insulting to the process. It’s made to grey the waters. And this is — there is nothing grey about waterboarding. As used as an interrogation technique with the intent to coerce a victim who is unwitting or unwilling, it is a torture, and it has been a torture throughout history….”
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/torturingdemocracy/interviews/malcolm_nance.html
raincheck December 9th, 2014 at 8:54 am
Stop distorting what he said… typical
Spirit of America December 9th, 2014 at 9:05 am
Send it to an english teacher, just that phrase, and see what they say. It is no distortion, it is what was said.
StoneyCurtisll December 8th, 2014 at 3:22 pm
Oh please…
tracey marie December 8th, 2014 at 1:53 pm
Maybe President Obama is ready to start the trials. He has brought us back from the recession that started in early 2007,he has passed a decent HC law, he refuses to be cowed by the goptp. He is now ready to seal his legacy with torture trials and condemnation of the bush/cheney WH.
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 2:58 am
Unfortunately, President Obama already committed to not prosecuting the torturers. I think one reason for that is he was handed off such a disaster of an economy that a year or more of rancorous debate was more than they could handle while also trying to work with Congress to get the country back on track, economically.
President Obama did, however, rescind all the legal opinions that underpinned the Bush torture program. Therefore, anyone who did it afterward can be prosecuted.
Holder also said that anyone who had gone beyond what Bush approved would be prosecuted and there’s been nothing since on that one as far as I know.
crc3 December 8th, 2014 at 2:09 pm
Why would anyone believe what Bush or any of his confederates say?
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:42 pm
Murder Inc
alpacadaddy December 8th, 2014 at 4:10 pm
…aka BushChenCo.
tracey marie December 8th, 2014 at 2:15 pm
I do not remember what I said…but I stand by it
I do not know what is in the report…but it is wrong
WMD and yellow cake from Niger are in Iraq……
guess which of the right wing made these comments
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:42 pm
Missed a good yakfest….pitty pat Wap tag #2
rg9rts December 8th, 2014 at 2:41 pm
He is wetting his pants that it will be Item #1 in his trial at The Hague for his crimes against humanity trial
edmeyer_able December 8th, 2014 at 5:34 pm
Quite a legacy georgie quite a legacy…
Spirit of America December 8th, 2014 at 8:24 pm
Yea, but who said he is not a threat and when did he take crimea?
Both seem to have been a bit off on that one, both.
edmeyer_able December 8th, 2014 at 6:06 pm
digby @digby56 24 minutes ago
On the eve of the torture report, fmr Bush official Dana Perino is “joking” about feeding Gitmo prisoners to an anaconda.
whatthe46 December 8th, 2014 at 6:40 pm
he said what?
fancypants December 10th, 2014 at 8:15 am
I knew it !
burqa December 9th, 2014 at 2:52 am
Notice that none of those in the pro-torture crowd, whether it is Bush and Tenet, or those we interact with online, ever cite trained professional, interrogators. After all, these are the best experts on what works in interrogation.
As some of you know, I have studied the field extensively. The most successful interrogators in history have been those who employed humane approaches. Their methods are taught and studied at schools that train interrogators.
This is what gets lost in the discussion.
The success of those employing humane approaches is extraordinary.
Two questions the pro-torture crowd can’t answer is when they are asked to produce trained, professional interrogators who agree with them. Second, they can’t even name, much less describe the most successful interrogators and their approaches, nor can they answer the logical follow-up question, which is why they support methods that perform poorly when there are far more successful methods available?
It kinda makes you wonder which side they are on.