Saudi Arabia Defends Public Beheadings
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D.B. Hirsch is a political activist, news junkie, and retired ad copy writer and spin doctor. He lives in Brooklyn, New York.
Real news. With snark, invective, and lots of links. Guaranteed behaving badly.
Um Cara February 3rd, 2015 at 8:29 am
Well, the US has capital punishment too & defends it. We don’t ‘zackly have high ground to claim here…
No way out February 3rd, 2015 at 9:30 am
Dear Saudis, even if done privately we find it barbaric and deplorable.
Mike February 3rd, 2015 at 11:37 am
Hard to keep track of who beheads more people, our friends or our enemies…maybe if we didn’t still execute criminals we’d be able to actually complain.
whatthe46 February 4th, 2015 at 1:21 am
we are the pot.
fahvel February 3rd, 2015 at 1:20 pm
doesn’t matter – they are rich and wallowing in petrol. Isis on the other hand is wallowing in desperation and fear like all revolutionaries. The saudis might even be giving isis an allowance.
arc99 February 3rd, 2015 at 1:47 pm
I deplore the death penalty. It is barbaric and I think that it is no coincidence that America’s closest political and cultural allies have banned the practice.
I will say that the Saudis are at least more honest about it than death penalty advocates here in the United States. In Saudi Arabia, many executions are held outdoors in a public square, not hidden behind closed doors witnessed by only a select few.
If the death penalty is such a wonderful idea, why not stream it live on the Internet? In those states which still impose the death penalty (are you listening Texas), make it a graduation requirement from high school for a student to watch an execution video and write an essay about their opinions on capital punishment.
Bunya February 3rd, 2015 at 1:56 pm
Yes, beheading are cruel and barbaric, but the fact is, it’s their country/their rules. People who don’t want to abide by them, should leave.
Apocalypse February 3rd, 2015 at 2:57 pm
As barbaric as we view it (separating head from body)..they believe it is a humane form of execution because death is almost instantaneous. Hanging, electrocution, firing squads, and gas chambers are things we have done that are arguably more painful and drawn out.
All execution is barbaric and inhuman regardless of how it’s done.
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 8:57 pm
“they believe it is a humane form of execution because death is almost instantaneous.”
Not so.
The koran states “‘I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them.’
This is to be employed against enemies of the state: criminals of high offense and combatants.
They believe that if beheaded, no chance of getting into ‘heaven’.
Apocalypse February 3rd, 2015 at 9:29 pm
This is what they say…
Beheading in Islam – Orthodox Islamic Understanding
Beheading is humane By Muhammad ibn Kateb Bismillah The legal evidence of beheading in Islam is the hadith narrated by Ali ra which states no capital punishment except by the sword.
‘The legal evidence of beheading in Islam is the hadith narrated by Ali ra which states no capital punishment except by the sword. This is hadith is graded acceptable by Sheikh Turkmani in his book Aljawharat AlNaqi. Scholars however disagreed that whether beheading by sword is the only way for capital punishment or not but it is one of the ways. Islam however does not permit slaughter as it is too much a suffering and the minimum amount of suffering in capital punishment is sought. The evidence is the verse “No extremity in killing should be done (Fala Usrif fil Qatl)”
http://www.orthodoxislam.org/beheading-in-islam.html
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 9:40 pm
You do realize the timing of the paper as well as the following of ibn and even the ? of if another less painful way is found should beheading be replaced… making the primary reason to be not about pain, or his own question would be a resounding, no questions asked, yes.
Apocalypse February 3rd, 2015 at 9:43 pm
I read this some time ago.
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 9:55 pm
It is a fairly ‘recent’ group, which also writes about the legality and being a member of the un, such as:
” UN has many programs, which it funds some of which are un-Islamic such as human rights agendas spelling out equality of sexes, rights of gays and lesbians to name a few. Allah has given man a degree higher over woman and the latter two are forbidden in Islam also.”
Apocalypse February 3rd, 2015 at 10:12 pm
Overall Islamic governments are repressive, as christians would be if they could turn the US into a theocracy.
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 10:43 pm
“Overall Islamic governments are repressive”
Agreed
“as christians would be if they could turn the US into a theocracy.”
No proof of that, just conjecture, especially since, unlike islam, chistianity doesn’t have a political/governance aspect to it’s ‘religion’ aspect. Render unto caesar clearly separates gov from belief. Islam however is very clear in it is all 3 aspects of man’s life: gov, social, spiritual.
Now, that is not to say there are not christians who would like to also have a gov that subscribes to christianity, but they are adding on to the faith, it is not inherent.
Apocalypse February 3rd, 2015 at 11:01 pm
“Christian Reconstructionism: Biblical Law, Theocracy, and Rule by Christians”
http://atheism.about.com/od/reconstructionist/p/Reconstruction.htm
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 11:24 pm
I agree not all, I said as much in my last paragraph. But there are 2 main points:
1. That is added on to christianity, it is not a part of the faith itself. To be true to christianity, it can not be a government as well, unlike islam.
2. The movement you cite is so new(less than 50+/- years old) and so small that in 2008 an article in Church History called it dead.
Apocalypse February 4th, 2015 at 12:11 am
Wiki stuff about Christian governments…
Following the unification of Italy, Vatican City became the last surviving territory of the former Papal States.[7] In 1929, the State of Vatican City was formally recognized as an independent state through treaties with the Italian government.[7] The head of state of the Vatican is the pope, elected by the College of Cardinals, an assembly of Senatorial-princes of the Church, who are usually clerics, appointed as Ordinaries, but in the past have also included men who were not bishops nor clerics.[7] A pope is elected for life, and either dies or may resign.
Voting is limited to cardinals under 80 years of age.[7] A Secretary for Relations with States, directly responsible for international relations, is appointed by the pope. The Vatican legal system is rooted in canon law but ultimately is decided by the pope; the Bishop of Rome as the Supreme Pontiff, “has the fullness of legislative, executive and judicial powers.”[8] Although the laws of Vatican City come from the secular laws of Italy, under article 3 of the Law of the Sources of the Law, provision is made for the supplementary application of the “laws promulgated by the Kingdom of Italy.”[9] The government of the Vatican can also be considered an ecclesiocracy (ruled by the Church).
In the Byzantine Empire (324-1453 AD) the Emperor was the head of civil society. He also exercised authority over the ecclesiastical authorities, or patriarchates. The emperor was considered to be God’s omnipotent representative on earth and he ruled as an absolute autocrat.[31]
Geneva under John Calvin’s influence and the Massachusetts Bay Colony of the “Puritans” had many characteristics of Protestant theocracies.
The short reign (1494–1498) of Girolamo Savonarola, a Dominican priest, over the city of Florence had features of a theocracy. During his rule, “un-Christian” books, statues, poetry, and other items were burned (in the Bonfire of the Vanities), sodomy was made a capital offense, and other Christian practices became law.
Although having a lay ruler (the King of Jerusalem) the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem (1099-1299) is considered to have some theocratic influences.
Also the Commonwealth of England under Oliver Cromwell as Lord Protector is also considered to have a considerable amount of theocratic influence.
The Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace in 1860s Qing China was a heterodox Christian theocracy led by a person who said that he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ, Hong Xiuquan. This theocratic state fought one of the most destructive wars in history, the Taiping Rebellion, against the Qing Dynasty for fifteen years before being crushed following the fall of the rebel capital Nanking.
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 12:23 am
Again, and besides being ancient history, note the usually short duration, the use of the word ‘influence'(not truly theocratic) and such when reading your post.
Now, find me in the christian belief itself, especially based off of the new testament since that is the mainstay of their teachings, where government is included?
The koran & most hadith directly, not glancingly, not peripherally, not the ‘interpretation of a few’, but directly state theocracy.
To try to compare the 2 religions on this topic and find them similar is simply an exercise in futility or petulance for the sake of being petulant, it can not be honestly done.
Apocalypse February 4th, 2015 at 12:50 am
I’m against both religions…all religions…not comparing them. Christianity has a history as bad as any.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 2:05 am
But we weren’t talking about the history of them, we were talking about your comment of “as christians would be if they could turn the US into a theocracy.”, which was inaccurate since christians don’t have a theocratic doctrine where as the muslims do.
Apocalypse February 4th, 2015 at 2:34 am
You believe what you like, I have my own opinion.
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 2:58 am
fair enough, and true.
Apocalypse February 4th, 2015 at 2:38 am
GOVERNMENT AND THEOCRACY
The State must be Openly, Publicly, and Officially Christian
http://vftonline.org/TestOath/08theocracy.htm
Apocalypse February 4th, 2015 at 2:43 am
http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/BlvcOnline/biblelaw-constitutionalism-pt11.html
fancypants February 3rd, 2015 at 6:30 pm
go ahead and support beheadings ISIL is cooking up new ideas as we speak
back at ya Saudis
Kick Frenzy February 3rd, 2015 at 9:44 pm
While the USA also has capitol punishment and it seems like we wouldn’t have much ground to stand on in condemning the practices of Saudi Arabia, there is a major difference.
In the USA we have a set of checks and balances that are exceedingly more stringent than Saudi Arabia’s system.
That being said, we also screw it up way too much for it to be considered a decent method of law enforcement.
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 10:02 pm
Nothing is ever perfect, no system or means. The trick is to find the best way(the ‘buys’ outweighs the ‘costs’) and keep trying to tweak it better and better while in the meantime meting out appropriate justice and keep society safe.
Kick Frenzy February 3rd, 2015 at 11:33 pm
True, but the problem with applying that to capitol punishment is that “not perfect” means “innocent people die”.
That’s not something I can support or be proud of.
Plus, it’s cheaper to keep someone jailed for life than it is to execute them (..when including trial costs – a single death incurs over a million dollars in costs).
Spirit of America February 3rd, 2015 at 11:48 pm
And yet escapes and getting out cause of technical legal issues have & do happen, and so are you ok w/more innocent people being victims?
whatthe46 February 4th, 2015 at 1:17 am
there were over a hundred men that were released not very long ago from death row, because as it turned out they were innocent. and GOD only knows how many have been executed already. how many more “victims” of the death penalty need there be? and lets not forget, there are those who receive it when there crimes (murder) is far less aggregious than those who receive life with the possibility of parole. its not and has never and will never be a fair system.
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 2:10 am
“there were over a hundred men that were released not very long ago from death row, because as it turned out they were innocent.”
That’s a good thing, shows the system worked for them pertaining to that.
“and GOD only knows how many have been executed already.”
I’d need a number before I use that as a reason, pro or con. Maybe it is none? if only God knows?
How many are dead that were innocent?
And then, how many have been raped/killed by individuals that got out some how, be it legal or escape?
It is only fair to know all the numbers of those questions before using any numbers, no?
Kick Frenzy February 4th, 2015 at 3:02 pm
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent
“The study concludes that were all innocent people who were given death sentences to be cleared of their offences, the exoneration rate would rise from the actual rate of those released – 1.6% – to at least 4.1%. That is equivalent in the time frame of the study, 1973 to 2004, of about 340 prisoners – a much larger group than the 138 who were exonerated in the same period.”
whatthe46 February 4th, 2015 at 3:40 pm
the system worked? after decades of sitting on deathrow with a date over your head to die is not a comfortable feeling. you can google for yourself the number released. and do you really think the legal system is going to revisit any questionable executions that have already taken place? of course not. there are people sitting in prison who are in fact innocent and because the system isn’t perfect, there should be no death penalty. its disgusting. its state sanctioned murder. no two ways about it.
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 5:43 pm
Yes, it is state sanctioned murder. Society has a right to protect oneself.
Kick Frenzy February 4th, 2015 at 3:07 pm
Of course I’m not oik with more victims, don’t be silly.
It’s simple, unless innocence can be proven without a doubt, then once someone is on “Life Row”, that’s it… no getting out.
(Unless you escape, but that isn’t really something to base this policy on.)
And with the millions of dollars that are saved, maybe invest some in rehab programs or something.
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 5:44 pm
How many criminals have escaped and did another crime?
Kick Frenzy February 4th, 2015 at 9:53 pm
How many escaped that weren’t on death row and did the same thing?
It’s a strawman argument. You’re better than that.
Spirit of America February 4th, 2015 at 11:10 pm
True enough on other criminals doing the same(escape/crime again), but the death penalty is for extreme crimes… for extreme criminals(or should be I believe)… when they escape/repeat, serious hurt is done. I don’t think it is a strawman argument, I think it should be addressed/considered.
Kick Frenzy February 5th, 2015 at 1:44 pm
It is a serious issue, but it has no bearing on whether we should allow the death sentence.
If there’s a problem with prisoners escaping, the correct response is to improve the facility they’re in and security measures that are in place there.
You’re basically arguing that because people on death row are dangerous and sometimes escape, that we should continue to have people on death row and maybe that will make things better.
O.o
Spirit of America February 5th, 2015 at 10:37 pm
Actually, I’m arguing that a serial killer’s(and other capitol offenders) death is, so far, the only way to guarantee a never-again crime by that criminal, the only way.
Kick Frenzy February 6th, 2015 at 1:10 pm
Well, it seems disingenuous to base the existence of a death penalty, in general, on just one specific type of criminal that faces those charges.
And are we really comfortable with killing hundreds of innocent people just to hedge bets against a possible escape by a single prisoner or two?
Spirit of America February 6th, 2015 at 2:19 pm
It isn’t just one, that just happens to be one argument being discussed.
And isn’t it a bit disingenuous to make up a number (“…comfortable with killing hundreds of innocent people”…) when that number has never been cited by any authority? Especially since the other number cited – “possible escape by a single prisoner or two?” – is so incorrect as well.
Here’s a short list(lex-nex search brought up dozens of pages, I give you 50 of them… 1st # is how many deaths for 1st conviction, 2nd # is how many more AFTER escape/release)-(plz note, many of these include rape/killing of children and multiple rapes, my 2nd number is JUST killings):
John McRae –- 1/2(possible 5)
John Miller — 1/2
Michael Lawrence — 1/1
Donald Dillbeck — 1/1
Edward Kennedy — 1/2
Dawud Mu’Min — 1/1
Viva Nash — 1/1
Randy Greenawalt — 1/4
Norman Parker — 1/1
Winford Stokes — 2/1
Charles Crawford — 1/1
Jack Ferrell — 1/1
Timothy Buss — 1/1
Tony Walker — 1/2
Jerome Butler — 1/1
Randolph Dial — 1/1
Arthur J. Bomar, Jr. — 1/1
Dwain Little — 1/4
Arthur Shawcross — 1/10(+)
Dalton Prejean — 1/1
Darrell P. Pandeli — 1/1
Chad Allen Lee — 1/3
Scott Lehr — 1/3(raped 10 after release)
James Erin McKinney — 1/2
Michael Murdaugh — 1/1
Charles Daniels — 1/1
Phillip Jablonski — 1/3
Robert Lee Massie — 1/2(+)
Kenneth McDuff – 1/15+
Darryl Kemp — 1/1
Timothy Hancock — 1/1
Howard Allen — 1/2
Melvin Geary — 1/1
Corey R. Barton — 1/1
Cuhuatemoc Hinricky Peraita — 3/1
James Prestridge — 1/1
Jimmy Lee Gray — 1/1
Jack Henry Abbott — 1/1
Benny Lee Chaffin — 1/1
Thomas Eugene Creech — 3/1
Wayne Henry Garrison — 2/1
Tommy Arthur — 1/1
Robert Lynn Pruett — 1/1
Miguel Salas Rodriguez — 1/1
Bennie Demps — 2/1
Leroy Schmitz — 1/1
Vernon Sattiewhite — 1/1
Tomas G. Ervin — 1/2
William Michael “Billy the Kid” Mason — 1/1
Daniel Joe Hittle — 2/5
Just this amount of escapes/release = more than a hundred, not to mention the multitudes of rapes.
Kick Frenzy February 7th, 2015 at 11:19 am
No, it wasn’t disingenuous to mention hundreds of innocents being put to death, as I based it on an article that had some detail about it.
“At least 4.1% of all defendants sentenced to death in the US in the modern era are innocent, according to the first major study to attempt to calculate how often states get it wrong in their wielding of the ultimate punishment.”
“The study concludes that were all innocent people who were given death sentences to be cleared of their offences, the exoneration rate would rise from the actual rate of those released – 1.6% – to at least 4.1%. That is equivalent in the time frame of the study, 1973 to 2004, of about 340 prisoners – a much larger group than the 138 who were exonerated in the same period.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent
And here’s a link to the study itself: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230
Now, do you still think it’s better to kill em all and let God sort em out?
Or maybe prisons should do a better job of preventing escapes, not to mention restructuring the entire system so it encourages reform instead of fostering anger, resentment and ultimately leads so many to harder criminal lives than before they went to jail.
Spirit of America February 7th, 2015 at 11:36 am
“according to the first major study to attempt to calculate”
I’m sorry, but even in the quote it says ‘attempt’, they have no real idea how close to accurate it is… it can be off in either direction by a lot or a little. Can you show me how many people have been put to death and proven latter was innocent? That would be a hard number and I would use that to add into the mix of consideration. I can & did show how many committed another crime after getting out in any manner, and that was just the 1st 50 of many pages in the list.
“Or maybe prisons should do a better job of preventing escapes, not to
mention restructuring the entire system so it encourages reform instead
of fostering anger,…”
Until that happens, until escapes become very rare, until releases of folks and then having them commit another crime becomes very rare, I’m still going to lean for the death penalty.
Look up the cases of the ones I posted… rapes of women and children, dismemberment, torture/killing in front of family members…
(thanks for the link to the study, I’ll hit it soon)
greenfloyd February 4th, 2015 at 5:41 am
Saudi Daily Report, well written, evenhanded. For example: