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February 28, 2015 8:00 am - NewsBehavingBadly.com

[su_right_ad]Of course if you yell at Christians you’re a bigot. Yell at Muslims and you’re a God-fearing patriot.

The Oklahoma City event was presented today by the Oklahoma chapter of the Council for American Islamic Relations…

Outside the Capitol, the protesters carried signs and shouted, “Allah, your pedophile leader!” and “Go home!”

The Muslim attendees were escorted past the protesters by members of the Interfaith Alliance of Oklahoma, noted Reuters.

Ray Wade, a pastor and protester, carried a sign that read, “Islam=Death.”

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D.B. Hirsch
D.B. Hirsch is a political activist, news junkie, and retired ad copy writer and spin doctor. He lives in Brooklyn, New York.

137 responses to Christian Protesters Yell At Oklahoma Muslims Celebrating ‘Muslim Day’

  1. tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 8:03 am

    um…….is there really any question that islam=death?

    • Sy Colepath February 28th, 2015 at 8:27 am

      Common sense dictates otherwise. What’s your excuse?

    • Hirightnow February 28th, 2015 at 9:07 am

      Everything ends in death.
      Christianity = death.
      Jesus = death.
      Judaism = death.
      Atheism = death.
      Buddhism = death.
      Hinduism= death = death = death…
      So do me a favor?
      Die.
      My religion (Fundamental Agnosticism) demands it.

      • Larry Schmitt February 28th, 2015 at 10:18 am

        Life ends in death.

        • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 9:00 pm

          No one gets out of here alive – title to a biography of Jim Morrison.

          • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 9:53 pm

            reread the title again idiot, you can’t even get that right!

          • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 11:46 pm

            Idiot? My, you are fond of ad hominem attacks.

            No One Here Gets Out Alive – happy now?

            Why didn’t you upvote that post too? Hard to type and stroke yourself too?

    • arc99 February 28th, 2015 at 10:50 am

      um……..is there really any question that organized religion (including Christianity) = death.

      there, fixed it for you.

      you’re welcome.

      • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 1:36 pm

        so, what would you attribute Godless communisms death toll to? there fixed it for you.

        • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 4:53 pm

          Ah, the non-sequitur rebuttal!
          (Sometimes known as the Idiots Gambit.)

          • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 7:02 pm

            self hating white idiot response! (sometimes known as the morons panty response) sissy!

          • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 8:45 pm

            Ooooh, deride my masculinity! That’ll sure make me come over to the know-nothing side! Where I can be with the “manly” men…

            http://www.thepinkflamingoblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Screen-Shot-2014-08-05-at-11.06.22-PM.png

          • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 9:50 pm

            this alinsky tactic of accusing others of doing exactly what you are doing has been exposed. i see you are posting your own motto picture, good for you sissy! also, not being confident in your own posts by NOT up-voting them shows your effeminate dominant personality! geez what a pussy!

          • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 11:48 pm

            Ad hominem attacks. Call me sissy, pussy. Don’t refute my positions, just attack the messenger.

            And upvoting your own posts is self-abuse. Why didn’t you upvote your post here? Blisters?

          • tm11999 March 1st, 2015 at 5:57 am

            wait, i initially asked what you what would you attribute Godless communisms death toll to and never got a response but ad hominem attacks! so again all you’ve done is accuse me of what you did, so for THAT (another) reason, i’m out! idiot!

          • OldLefty March 1st, 2015 at 8:46 am

            It’s very simple;

            “With or without religion, you would have good people
            doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do
            evil things, that takes religion.”

            ― Steven Weinberg

          • OldLefty March 1st, 2015 at 7:41 am

            this alinsky tactic of accusing others of doing exactly what you are doing has been exposed

            _______

            1) Please explain how this tactic comes from “Alinsky”.

            Saul Alinsky??

            Do you even know who he is??

            2)”accusing others of doing exactly what you are doing” Doesn’t that describe you to a tee???

            Methinks thou dost project too much!

            Neurotic projection is perceiving others as operating in ways one unconsciously finds objectionable in yourself.

          • tm11999 March 1st, 2015 at 9:37 am

            well 1st of all, labeling yourself as oldlefty brings a picture of a lazy young man who instead of growing to manhood, smoked pot and learned to blame your own shortcomings and hazy sexual identity on “the man” in answer, 1)all 12 of his ultimately disruptive anti-capitalist “rules” evoke a spirit of “kill him with his own gun” hatefulness reminiscent of ISIS. yes 2) “Neurotic projection”is a freudian make-up from 1914, my suggestion to you would be to practice “transference resistance” soas you could turn inward to solve your infantile dependence conflicts in new ways. and for these reasons, i’m out!

          • mea_mark March 1st, 2015 at 9:44 am

            That is for sure, you are out of here, permanently.

          • OldLefty March 1st, 2015 at 10:29 am

            1) well 1st of all, labeling yourself as oldlefty brings a picture of a lazy young man who instead of growing to manhood, smoked pot and learned t o blame your own shortcomings and hazy sexual identity on “the man” in answer, 1)all 12 of his ultimately disruptive anti-capitalist “rules” evoke a spirit of “kill him with his own gun” hatefulness reminiscent of ISIS. yes 2) “Neurotic projection”is a freudian make-up from 1914, my suggestion to you would be to practice “transference resistance” soas you could turn inward to solve your infantile dependence conflicts in new ways. and for these reasons, i’m out!

            _______

            Clearly you know as little about me as you do about Saul Alinsky.

            Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about???

            2) What anti-capitalistic rules? Please produce them.

            3) I think perhaps you are a liberal doing right wing schtick in order to made them look silly.

          • mea_mark March 1st, 2015 at 10:50 am

            I don’t care what he is, he’s gone from here and that is what I care about.

          • OldLefty March 1st, 2015 at 10:54 am

            Why do we always get rid of the most easy targets??
            I have been on a years long search to find ONE conservative who invokes the name of Saul Alinsky who ACTUALLY knows ANYTHING about him.

          • mea_mark March 1st, 2015 at 10:57 am

            LOL, sorry.

          • OldLefty March 1st, 2015 at 10:59 am

            It’s just that they are Soooo easy!

          • mea_mark March 1st, 2015 at 11:01 am

            Well, he is still alive at Crooks and Liars.

          • OldLefty March 1st, 2015 at 11:07 am

            OK.
            I DID respond to him there. (I can’t help myself. It’s a sickness).

    • fahvel February 28th, 2015 at 12:11 pm

      if you are serious you are an absolute ahole.

      • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 1:34 pm

        the actions of islams representatives around the world in the last 20 years kinda prove it, convince the rest of us otherwise, serious a-hole!

        • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 4:52 pm

          Over those same 20 years, we have been subjected to reich-wing terror attacks by “KKKristian” warriors doing what they claim is gods bidding, therefore Kristianity=Death. Convince me otherwise.

          • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 7:00 pm

            name these terror attacks please.

          • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 8:50 pm

            Here’s 10: http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

          • tm11999 February 28th, 2015 at 9:41 pm

            wait, you have to go back 30 years and 9 of your 10 are a crazy single guy committing a single murder. so according to you any murders are terrorism on a par with mass beheadings and burning people in cages, self-hating idiot!

          • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 11:38 pm

            “self-hating idiot!”

            You like that one, don’t you? You bought the projector, you’re damn well gonna use it!

            Ever heard of the Phineas Priesthood? Kristian terrorists
            George Tiller? Kristian Terrorist.
            Ever heard of the Central African Republic? In 2013, Kristian mobs attacked Muslims and their mosques.
            Maybe you know National Liberation Front of Tripura? Christian terrorists in India.
            How about the Lords Resistance Army? Ugandan Kristian terrorists.
            Christian Identity? Yeah, you guessed it, Kristian terrorists.
            How about Anders Brevik? A two-fer – a far-right Kristian terrorist.

            Here in the US, 94% of terror attacks are committed by NON-Muslims. Jewish terrorists are responsible for more terror attacks than Muslims.

        • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 12:54 am

          The actions of Republicans over the last thirty years far outweigh the actions of any “representatives” of Islam.

          For one thing, these Islamic terrorists don’t represent Islam. Right-wing Republican terrorists often represent Americans, since they were somehow “elected” (even if dubiously).

          • tm11999 March 1st, 2015 at 5:51 am

            well it’s obvious that you are 1 delusional moron, and for that reason, i’m out!

    • tracey marie February 28th, 2015 at 5:59 pm

      what an ass you are. your homophobic, racism and plain old hood wearing fear mongering hate is evident in all your posts.

    • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 12:49 am

      Conservatism = death.

      B*$h and Cheney are responsible for more innocent civilian deaths than all the terrorists in the world combined.

  2. edmeyer_able February 28th, 2015 at 8:04 am

    So if Obama condemns these “christians” does that mean he’s a Muslim or a Christian I’m so confused now.

  3. John Tarter February 28th, 2015 at 8:38 am

    CAIR – the unindicted co-conspirator organization. Hey, at least the Christians didn’t try to lop off any heads.

    • edmeyer_able February 28th, 2015 at 8:50 am

      Seems they prefer to use guns for most of their executions.

    • OldLefty February 28th, 2015 at 9:35 am

      CAIR – the unindicted co-conspirator organization.

      ________

      The key word is “unindicted”

      Hey, at least the Christians didn’t try to lop off any heads.
      ________

      Except when they did.

      They underwent a reformation.
      I accuse the right wing of doing EVERYTHING it can to resist a reformation in the Islamic world.

    • craig7120 February 28th, 2015 at 10:15 am

      Don’t be so modest, right wing xtians are doing an “exceptional” job at perpetuating the war on Islam, by supporting/voting for wars in the Middle East. C’mon, you didn’t think they would just lay down their arms and surrender, silly.
      The military industrial complex as this down to a science, scare you with bad people from around the world so you will send them your hard earned money to fight the ghosts, it’s the same on the other side, cept we call them instigators or mullahs/imams. Kind of like religion, scare you with hell, send money to be saved.
      Smarten up

    • arc99 February 28th, 2015 at 10:49 am

      perhaps the Christians were all too fatigued after decades of exterminating native Americans and lynching black people.

      this is United States of America. The first amendment and Article 6 guarantees equality under the law for all religious beliefs. If you don’t like it then get the f*ck out of MY country.

      Russia would love to have another Putin-worshiper.

    • William February 28th, 2015 at 1:06 pm

      There are more than 133,000 individually recorded civilian deaths since the 2003 invasion of Iraq due to direct war related violence and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have been wounded.

      http://costsofwar.org/article/iraqi-civilians

      Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the unindicted co-conspirator organization

  4. fahvel February 28th, 2015 at 12:09 pm

    oklahoma is a part of texas, right? so maybe it could follow to mexico. I should probably retract this and apologize to mexico.

    • Carla Akins February 28th, 2015 at 12:31 pm

      Not quite, Oklahoma is the state just north of central Texas – Oklahoma City is about 100 miles north of the Texas state line. Honestly, in my humble opinion I think Oklahoma’s worse than Texas – politically speaking.

      • alpacadaddy February 28th, 2015 at 1:33 pm

        Actually, having spent much time in both states, I was taught that the only reason Texas doesn’t slide into the Gulf is that Oklahoma SUCKS!

        • William February 28th, 2015 at 1:50 pm

          Actually, having spent much time in both states

          • craig7120 February 28th, 2015 at 5:25 pm

            True
            I like Texas, been there many times and I highly recommend visiting the lone star state.

            My Texas buddies don’t take themselves to seriously even the conservatives, I like to believe they have a healthy dose of humility, good bunch cowboys & geeks down yonder.

          • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 3:46 pm

            But why do they have misogynistic flakes running their state?

          • craig7120 March 2nd, 2015 at 4:19 pm

            I dunno, the same thing happens in my state, I get out voted during Missouri elections. I sure hope I’m not considered a nut for what Missouri law makers pass. Seriously, my railroad friends are a good mix of dudes but by no means is that a snapshot of the Texas legislators.

          • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 4:28 pm

            Texas and Florida are “special” cases, as opposed to other moderate red states. I’m beginning to suspect there’s something in the water in those two states that makes rational people make irrational voting decisions.

          • craig7120 March 2nd, 2015 at 4:30 pm

            Good point
            I never drink tap water in any state, ya never know

  5. Robert M. Snyder February 28th, 2015 at 3:55 pm

    Bigotry is evil, but it pales in comparison to this: (warning: graphic)
    http://www.barenakedislam.com/category/beheadings-graphic

    • bpollen February 28th, 2015 at 4:57 pm

      http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

    • Bunya February 28th, 2015 at 9:12 pm

      And if anybody would know about bigotry, it would be a bigot like you.

      • Robert M. Snyder February 28th, 2015 at 10:16 pm

        What is your definition of bigotry?

        • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 12:49 am

          Look in the mirror.

          • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 9:34 am

            You read my mind!

          • burqa March 7th, 2015 at 4:20 pm

            Let’s say he is a bigot.
            You sure don’t approve of that.
            What do you want? What would be the best outcome?
            I suggest it would be for him to change, right?
            A bad outcome would be for him to continue in bigotry.
            Since the two of you are in regular contact, would it be better for you to contribute to him remaining a bigot or to him moving in your direction?
            If what you do results in him becoming a worse bigot, then don’t you deserve some blame?
            If what you do softens him a little and he moves in your direction, then credit for being an agent of positive change comes your way because you earned it.
            It would be unreasonable for such a change to come in an instant.
            So we gotta work with each other.

            And gentlemen, please, please understand that the above is not really directed at either of you personally. The conversation at this point was convenient for me to make this point, but that’s all.
            I like both of you guys. Too bad we can’t get together for some softball or do some fishing together. I’ll bet it would be a good time, don’t y’all agree?

    • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 12:49 am

      I’m not going to click on your link, since it’s probably some kind of sick torture porn.

      You have to wonder what kind of sick person you have to be to get off of executions and torture. I guess it’s a conservative thing.

      Oh, and how many of these American Muslim citizens are terrorists, hmmm?
      The fact that you would take the side of racist religious bigots over the rights of peaceful patriotic citizens trying to celebrate the blessings of freedom and democracy speaks volumes.

      Conservatives are slime, pure and simple.

      • Robert M. Snyder March 1st, 2015 at 1:25 am

        I do not condone anything on that website. All I said is that bigotry pales in comparison to beheadings, and provided a link to a site containing actual ISIS beheading videos. I do not frequent sites of that type, and I was only able to watch two beheading clips before I got too stressed out to continue. It is extremely hard to watch.

        We have real enemies. Why you are more concerned about conservatives than about terrorists is beyond me.

        Your last statement “Conservatives are slime, pure and simple” is telling. Some conservatives are slime, just as some Muslims are slime, some Jews are slime, and some Christians are slime. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, conservatism, and liberalism are all systems of belief. It is not fair to judge all Muslims, Jews, or Christians by the actions of a few. Neither is it fair to judge all liberals or all conservatives by the actions of a few. So please don’t lecture me about bigotry.

        • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 2:37 am

          This is a post about peaceful Americans being harassed by dumbfuck right-wing freaks, and your response is to post a link to a lurid website about beheadings.

          In your mind, these peaceful Muslims in Oklahoma, brimming with pride at the democratic traditions, wanting to be included and accepted, are just like those throat-slashing terrorists. You’re a filthy nasty right-wing bigot, and I will lecture you until you slink away in shame.

        • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 2:49 am

          I’m more concerned about conservatives than terrorists because conservatives have far, far, FAR more potential to harm our society and our values than a few religious fanatics in the desert half a world away.

          In fact, conservatives have already damaged the United States more than all the terrorists in the world could ever hope to do. Conservatives have warped the vision of what the United States could be, and twisted it into a monstrosity ruled by a handful of wealthy oligarchs, spreading death in destruction in their wake all over the world, in a greedy lust for ever-increasing profits. the only people standing in their way are the liberals who remain faithful to the original mission: personal liberty and social progress. You stand with the oppressors. You enable them. All conservatives do. That’s why you’re slime.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 1st, 2015 at 3:06 am

            You would judge an entire class of people by the actions of a few? That’s the very definition of prejudice. It’s exactly what the Christians did when they harassed the Muslims in the article. Your hatred of all conservatives is just as ugly as the hatred that some Christians have for all Muslims. I once had a good friend who was a Muslim. He was a visiting scholar from Bahrain. He attended my wedding. When I watched the beheading videos, one of the clips showed a Muslim man being beheaded. I know this because he was repeating Allahu Akbar over and over, with his last breaths. I could barely stand to watch his execution. Does that sound like someone who hates Muslims? Where do you get the right to hurl accusations at me, and all conservatives for that matter? Your words reveal that your heart is full of hatred. You need to do some serious introspection.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 1st, 2015 at 3:06 am

            You would judge an entire class of people by the actions of a few? That’s the very definition of prejudice. It’s exactly what the Christians did when they harassed the Muslims in the article. Your hatred of all conservatives is just as ugly as the hatred that some Christians have for all Muslims. I once had a good friend who was a Muslim. He was a visiting scholar from Bahrain. He attended my wedding. When I watched the beheading videos, one of the clips showed a Muslim man being beheaded. I know this because he was repeating Allahu Akbar over and over, with his last breaths. I could barely stand to watch his execution. Does that sound like someone who hates Muslims? Where do you get the right to hurl accusations at me, and all conservatives for that matter? Your words reveal that your heart is full of hatred. You need to do some serious introspection.

          • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 3:19 am

            Yeah, you have a Muslim friend. Just like those bigots who are eager to tell you that they have a Black friend.

            Well, I don’t have conservative friends. There USED to be decent conservatives who had the best intentions and were concerned with the public good, but those have become mighty scarce in the last thirty years or so.

            I used to feel bad about hating conservatives, because I was brought up to believe that it was bad to hate your neighbor. Well, I don’t feel guilty about it anymore. Conservative ideology is based on the lowest instincts of the reptilian brain. Fear, anger, hatred, ignorance, greed, selfishness. They are bloodthirsty fanatics who crave for war and more war. They are psychopaths who love guns more than the lives of little children. they are racist, sexist, homophobic bigots who hate anyone who doesn’t look, think, or worship like them.

            But I’m a liberal. Even though I despise conservatives and the evil things they stand for, i still believe in democracy and the right to free speech. In fact, I love it when conservatives reveal who they truly are, like when you equate peaceful Muslim-Americans with terrorists.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 1st, 2015 at 3:34 am

            Substitute the word “Muslim” for “Conservative”, and you will sound just like the bigots you so despise. Here is your paragraph with only the first word changed:

            “Muslim ideology is based on the lowest instincts of the reptilian brain. Fear, anger, hatred, ignorance, greed, selfishness. They are bloodthirsty fanatics who crave for war and more war. They are psychopaths who love guns more than the lives of little children. they are racist, sexist, homophobic bigots who hate anyone who doesn’t look, think, or worship like them.”

            It doesn’t sound very good, does it? Maybe it’s time to dial back the anger and realize that all conservatives do not think alike, just as all Muslims do not think alike.

          • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 3:37 am

            Delete the offensive post with that bloody link, and I’ll consider it.

            As long as you’re the type of person who treats your fellow Americans as terrorists, just because they have a different religion, I will take no advice from you.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 1st, 2015 at 3:46 am

            Done. I should not have posted that link without some explanatory text.

          • jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 3:58 am

            Thank you for the gesture of goodwill, though I don’t think any text could possibly explain the link between Muslim American citizens who care about civic engagement, and crazed religious fanatic murderers.

            On my side, I will say that many American conservatives are hard-working, patriotic Americans with strong values and ideals. I think they are not always well-educated, however, and they fail to see how they are being manipulated. I was too harsh, and I apologize.

            I also think that there may still be quite a few decent conservatives out there. I just wish they would make themselves more evident, and stand up to their scheming leadership, and the virulent strain of ignorance and evil that is poisoning their party.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 1st, 2015 at 4:23 am

            If we were closer, I’d offer you a handshake.

            At the risk of belaboring a point, let me do that substitution thing one more time:

            “I also think that there may still be quite a few decent MUSLIMS out there. I just wish they would make themselves more evident, and stand up to their scheming leadership, and the virulent strain of ignorance and evil that is poisoning their RELIGION.”

            I think your point has merit, but it seems that the media is always looking for the wackiest people with the wackiest opinions in order to stir up controversy and drive up ratings. Reasonable people often get short shrift. And what about this blog? Does Alan post stories about reasonable conservatives with reasonable ideas? Or is he selecting the wackiest stories about the wackiest conservatives?

          • Spirit of America March 1st, 2015 at 6:31 am

            Posted:
            “They are psychopaths who love guns more than the lives of little
            children. they are racist, sexist, homophobic bigots who hate anyone who doesn’t look, think, or worship like them.”
            (talking about american citizens, conservatives, in toto)

            Posted by same person:
            “As long as you’re the type of person who treats your fellow Americans as terrorists, just because they have a different religion,”
            (talking about you, Robert)

            Now, change out the word religion in that last post quote and insert ‘political view’.

            Interesting.

          • burqa March 7th, 2015 at 4:07 pm

            Aw man, I’m both surprised and sorry to hear that.
            My best friend since high school is a conservative. We just don’t talk politics and everything goes well. Occasionally we’ll mention something politically, but, though we never really enunciated it, we have a sort of understanding. What we do is one person will make a comment, the other will respond, then we’ll try to find any agreement quickly with a dose of humor and then move on.
            Just about everyone has something to offer.
            Just think – the people you dislike most who you think have little or no positive aspects have dear friends and family who love them and think they are wonderful.
            So the challenge is to find what good or interesting things there are. Sometimes this is not possible, but it’s worth a shot.
            I say this with some self interest because in real life a lot of times people I came to be close to were people who disliked me or I disliked them initially. I can be hard to get to know, in part because of my independence and in part because as an artist a lot of times my thoughts are so far off that I can seem indifferent or unreachable. It just takes some time and patience before I eventually come around to display a facet that is more understandable and approachable.

            One of the more beautiful things I have seen was the struggle we had here to establish the Thurman Brisben homeless shelter. It still sickens me that the struggle had to be as hard as it was and went on as long as it did. But the cool thing was it was an effort involving people in the community who were stodgy conservative types, old hippies, liberals, blue collar folks, housewives, salesmen and minsters from several different denominations with serious differences on the subject of their faith. Yet we all pulled together, shoulder-to-shoulder, including some who had fought like cats and dogs on other issues and had personal animosities.
            Jassper, you and I can agree on many things where we feel conservative policies or ideas have been destructive or could lead us in the wrong direction. But they are not out to destroy the nation.
            People are just really different. The things that are easy for you to perceive are next to impossible for someone else, and vice versa. Different people take complex subjects with many factors and weigh those factors quite differently. We’re stuck together – no one is going away and we gotta seek agreement, even when it is in small degrees, and figure out a way to get along, tolerating them as they tolerate us and if they’re short on tolerance then we gotta show them the way.

          • jasperjava March 7th, 2015 at 4:26 pm

            Thanks for the post, which deserves a more fulsome reply than I am about to do here.

            Just time enough to say that I can tolerate conservatives, without having to befriend them.

          • burqa March 7th, 2015 at 6:02 pm

            That’s cool. Your post says a lot anyway.
            It says what I already knew, which is you’re a good guy. We’ve been around and around a few times, but it’s all in fun, right?
            We’re all kinda stumbling around at times, trying to find our way.
            But it’s good sometimes to step back and shoot each other a smile and wonder just what the hell are we doing and to remind ourselves it’s just a message board and in person we’d take it a little more easy.
            It’s me making this point now, but I’m sure there’ll come a time when I get a little wound up and will need you saying the same thing back to me.
            That time will come sooner or later so I’ll go ahead and thank you ahead of time.

          • burqa March 7th, 2015 at 4:07 pm

            Aw man, I’m both surprised and sorry to hear that.
            My best friend since high school is a conservative. We just don’t talk politics and everything goes well. Occasionally we’ll mention something politically, but, though we never really enunciated it, we have a sort of understanding. What we do is one person will make a comment, the other will respond, then we’ll try to find any agreement quickly with a dose of humor and then move on.
            Just about everyone has something to offer.
            Just think – the people you dislike most who you think have little or no positive aspects have dear friends and family who love them and think they are wonderful.
            So the challenge is to find what good or interesting things there are. Sometimes this is not possible, but it’s worth a shot.
            I say this with some self interest because in real life a lot of times people I came to be close to were people who disliked me or I disliked them initially. I can be hard to get to know, in part because of my independence and in part because as an artist a lot of times my thoughts are so far off that I can seem indifferent or unreachable. It just takes some time and patience before I eventually come around to display a facet that is more understandable and approachable.

            One of the more beautiful things I have seen was the struggle we had here to establish the Thurman Brisben homeless shelter. It still sickens me that the struggle had to be as hard as it was and went on as long as it did. But the cool thing was it was an effort involving people in the community who were stodgy conservative types, old hippies, liberals, blue collar folks, housewives, salesmen and minsters from several different denominations with serious differences on the subject of their faith. Yet we all pulled together, shoulder-to-shoulder, including some who had fought like cats and dogs on other issues and had personal animosities.
            Jassper, you and I can agree on many things where we feel conservative policies or ideas have been destructive or could lead us in the wrong direction. But they are not out to destroy the nation.
            People are just really different. The things that are easy for you to perceive are next to impossible for someone else, and vice versa. Different people take complex subjects with many factors and weigh those factors quite differently. We’re stuck together – no one is going away and we gotta seek agreement, even when it is in small degrees, and figure out a way to get along, tolerating them as they tolerate us and if they’re short on tolerance then we gotta show them the way.

    • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 9:45 am

      “Bigotry is evil, but it pales in comparison to this: (warning: graphic)”.
      .
      Oh yeah! That’s so much worse than shooting doctors in the head, blowing up clinics, bombing office buildings and blowing up little Muslim babies in an unnecessary war for profit.
      .
      But that’s okay, because all of these atrocities were carried out “in Jesus’ name”.

      • Robert M. Snyder March 2nd, 2015 at 10:20 am

        I watched two of the beheading clips on that website, which was about all I could take. The second clip showed the beheading of a Muslim man by ISIS members. Nobody in that video was talking about Jesus.

        My point was that shouting insults pales in comparison to this kind of physical violence. I think it’s important to keep a sense of perspective. All too often, we measure violence by numbers, and TV police and detective shows present a sanitized version of death where we can keep some emotional distance. When I watched the beheading of the Muslim man, I didn’t have that emotional distance. I felt as if it were happening to me.

        Nobody should have to endure harassment and insults because of their religious faith or because of their political affiliation. Religion and politics are voluntary systems of belief. People choose to remain Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Liberal, or Conservative. We have a choice. As individuals, we can choose to (1) respect those whose beliefs differ from our own. We can choose to (2) harass and insult them. Or we can choose to (3) kill them. My point is that (3) is far worse than (2). That does not imply that I approve of (2).

        • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 11:37 am

          Sure, shouting insults pales in comparison to beheadings, but shooting someone, blowing up clinics and bombing Muslim countries, is just as bad – if not worse. Just like the rest of the Christian fundamentalists who post here (trees, burqa), you only see a “problem” when Muslims are involved.
          .
          Now if these christian morons want to embarrass themselves in the name of their god, it’s their prerogative. But to claim that’s the extent of the damage they do, is false.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 2nd, 2015 at 12:14 pm

            Fox News has been criticizing the president for not using the words “Muslim” or “Islamic” when describing terrorists. The White House takes the position that religion is not the issue. The issue is terrorism. Do you agree? If so, then why are you mentioning the fact that these people are Christians? Why not just call them morons and killers and stop there? What’s Christianity got to do with it?

          • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 1:22 pm

            “If so, then why are you mentioning the fact that these people are Christians?”
            .
            I’m not sure, but I guess the word “pastor” in the above sentence, “Ray Wade, a PASTOR and protestor…” in the above sentence gave me a clue.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 2nd, 2015 at 5:49 pm

            Apparently I didn’t make my point very clearly. Suppose a short, fat, black woman with a limp robs a convenience store. What do they say on the news reports? “A black woman robbed a store”. They selectively focus on one aspect, as if somehow the person’s race matter more than anything else. The fact that these people were Christians is not relevant. For all we know, they might also be musicians or Rotary Club members. Their actions do not reflect on the institution of Christianity any more than they would reflect on musicians in general or on Rotary Club members.

          • Bunya March 2nd, 2015 at 8:47 pm

            And the actions of a few crazies does not represent the actions of the whole Muslim community, regardless of what you may think.

            You may think his actions don’t reflect those of a Christian, but apparently this pastor does. I love religion. It’s all selective. One gets to pick and choose whose actions are Christian-like and non-Christian-like. Who cares? If they didn’t do stupid things, they wouldn’t make the news.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 2nd, 2015 at 9:13 pm

            “And the actions of a few crazies does not represent the actions of the whole Muslim community”

            That is *precisely* my point. Glad we agree on that.

          • burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 10:06 pm

            Indeed. One of these days Bunya will see it is just as wrong to stereotype all Muslims by the actions of a few crazies as it is to stereotype all Christians by the actions of a few.

            One hopes he’ll see it sooner rather than later….

          • Robert M. Snyder March 2nd, 2015 at 10:30 pm

            Shortly after 9/11, George Bush said that Islam is a religion of peace. Many people have subsequently debated that topic. It seems to me that the question is largely irrelevant. What matters is that most Muslims are peaceful, and most Christians are peaceful. And I take comfort in that knowledge.

          • burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 11:53 pm

            Well said. Lost in all the attention given to terrorism and the bigots trying to make all Muslims into wild-eyed terrorists is the way most Muslims live and how they practice their faith.
            They can be extraordinarily hospitable and generous in their giving to the poor. It is not so easy to see here because there are so few of them in America.
            But there are a lot of Christians and this is why I keep challenging those who try to falsely stereotype them to take a look around at their own community and find out what various churches are doing.
            When we associate with those who are different and experience the sort of people they are, false stereotypes become exposed and we see the error in our misconceptions.

            Not only do we need to see these stereotypes are false, but also that they impede progress.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 12:27 am

            If I could just add one case in point:

            A good friend’s uncle grew up in the rural, coal-mining region where I now live. This man went to Princeton and then accepted a university research position in Oslo Norway. Some years back, he traveled to Tajikistan to install seismic monitoring instrumentation at the Usoi Dam, which was formed by a landslide in 1911. There is great concern for the safety of the many people who now live below the dam.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usoi_Dam

            During his trip, Elmo and his associates were shown wonderful hospitality by the numerous peasant families who housed and fed them. All of these families were Muslim.

            I know it’s just an anecdote, but then again, so are most of the stories we hear about extremist Muslims. My working assumption is that the vast majority of Muslims are just like the vast majority of Christians. They can be persuaded to fear others by a charismatic leader, but left to themselves, they are generally more interested in peace than in conflict. I can’t prove it. It’s just my working assumption.

            Coming from a Protestant background, I can also frame it in this way: The Holy Spirit is one third of the Holy Trinity (i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) . Personally, I believe in a Holy Duo. I do not think that one needs to “accept Christ”. So I no longer call myself a Christian.

            Like Thomas Jefferson, I regard Christ as a great moral teacher. I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to everyone, regardless of how they were taught to pronounce the name of the Creator (e.g. Allah, God, Yahweh, etc). When people listen to that inner voice, they will yearn for peace.

            Young Muslim parents love their babies just as much as young Christian parents, or young atheist parents for that matter. Of course there are exceptions. But my working assumption, supported by my own experiences with people, is that most people really do try to be loving and peaceful.

            Maybe it’s in our DNA. Maybe it’s the Holy Spirit. I don’t feel the need to answer that question. For me it’s enough to know that people the world over are basically decent and good. It’s a pity that our media (including this blog) constantly reports the ugly exceptions to the rule, thereby reinforcing stereotypes.

          • trees March 3rd, 2015 at 2:20 am

            Personally, I believe in a Holy Duo. I do not think that one needs to “accept Christ”. So I no longer call myself a Christian.

            Just out of curiosity, could you explain what the significance of “accepting Christ” is?

            Like Thomas Jefferson, I regard Christ as a great moral teacher. I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to everyone, regardless of how they were taught to pronounce the name of the Creator (e.g. Allah, God, Yahweh, etc). When people listen to that inner voice, they will yearn for peace.

            So, an “inner voice” is the voice of The Creator?

            For me it’s enough to know that people the world over are basically decent and good.

            Couple things, what is “good”, and why are there laws?

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 3:39 am

            Just out of curiosity, could you explain what the significance of “accepting Christ” is?

            No, I cannot. It never made sense to me. People say that Hitler was a monster because he exterminated six million Jews. I certainly agree. And that is why I cannot imagine a Creator who would have sentenced those same Jews to an eternity of punishment simply because they did not accept the proposition that Christ was the Messiah.

            “So, an “inner voice” is the voice of The Creator?”

            That is my working assumption. String theorists have serious conversations about the possibility of numerous additional dimensions which cannot be perceived by our senses. Many people of faith (Muslim, Christian, Jewish) have serious conversations about the possibility of a spiritual dimension. I do not consider it as something outside the realm of Physics. Rather, I consider it as an aspect of Physics that is beyond our senses. Every child, at some point, wonders what happens to Grandma when she dies. Some people choose to entertain the possibility that the essence of Grandma’s being may live on in some way that is not perceptible to our senses. Numerous American presidents and diplomats have chosen to entertain the possibility of solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It would appear that faith transcends reason.

            “what is “good”, and why are there laws?”

            People have been struggling to define goodness for millennia. Pick any of the great philosophers and read their works. Do you seriously need my help in understanding why laws exist? Some laws exist to compel certain behaviors, while others exist to prohibit other behaviors. I suppose that laws exist to promote the general welfare of the society that created them.

          • trees March 3rd, 2015 at 1:31 pm

            No, I cannot. It never made sense to me.

            So, no one ever explained the great exchange. No one ever explained the ransom that was paid, the life that was given in exchange for yours…..no one ever explained the significance of the cross? You never understood the deity of Christ and His forgiveness, you never understood the payment made on your behalf at His expense?

            People say that Hitler was a monster because he exterminated six million Jews. I certainly agree.

            Hitler was responsible for what Hitler did, Hitler acted according to his own inner thoughts, his own inner voice.

            And that is why I cannot imagine a Creator who would have sentenced those same Jews to an eternity of punishment simply because they did not accept the proposition that Christ was the Messiah.

            Can you imagine anyone being sentenced to an eternity of punishment? In your opinion, should Hitler be sentenced to this fate, this eternal damnation?

            The fact is this, we are all under a death sentence. All of us die, and there is no good way to die. Death is not natural, it is not a natural part of life. Death is the point of departure, death is the eternal moment, dead is dead. Life itself is supernatural in nature, as no one can understand it’s mechanism. We try, but really, we don’t understand what it is that gives life to begin with. I think we could both agree that life is fantastic, the act of living is beyond words, the total experience of being alive surpasses words…..artists are revered for their ability to capture a moment of life, and we marvel at our own existence and the moment that is revealed in a work of art. An old photograph is a moment in time, and I can study the figures in that photograph for long periods, wondering who they were and how they lived…..

            And that is why I cannot imagine a Creator who would have sentenced those same Jews to an eternity of punishment simply because they did not accept the proposition that Christ was the Messiah.

            It’s more than “simply not accepting a proposition”, it’s a lifetime of denial. It’s remaining willfully ignorant when provided the opportunity to know God. It’s refusing to see the sinfulness within ourselves and the stubbornness of refusing to accept His sacrifice, preferring instead to rely on ourselves, preferring to hold up our goodness as sufficient, instead of accepting His goodness and sacrifice. The Christian holds up Christ as God, the Christian repents and puts his/her faith in their Redeemer, the Christian realizes that he/she is unacceptable to God in their present state and desires to be made as He is…..

            The Christian desires His forgiveness

            The law was not given to righteous men, as a righteous man has no need of the law, for a righteous man does by his very nature that which is in full accordance of the law. The law was given to lawbreakers.

            The apostle Paul, who was a member of the Sanhedrin, penned this for our benefit…..

            “The law is our schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ.” Gal 3:24

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 3:13 pm

            What makes you certain that any of this is true? If you cite passages from the Bible, my next question will be “How do you know you’ve got the right book?”.

            Please understand that I am not trying to be sarcastic. I grew up in a loving Protestant church, and I still have great admiration for some of the adults who believed exactly as you do. (I am now 55, so some of those adults are no longer with us).

            Somewhere along the line, I learned to trust my heart as much as my mind; perhaps a bit more. My heart tells me that God does not expect people to correctly guess which set of religious beliefs represent the so-called “one, true faith”.

            So I will ask again: How do you know you’ve got the right book?

          • trees March 3rd, 2015 at 3:56 pm

            What makes you certain that any of this is true? If you cite passages from the Bible, my next question will be “How do you know you’ve got the right book?”.

            By testing it’s truth claims. By examining what it says, and understanding what the authors wrote. By pulling the meaning out of the text.

            My heart tells me that God does not expect people to correctly guess which set of religious beliefs represent the so-called “one, true faith”.

            An informed decision is made in the absence of guesswork. If God had left us without speaking to us, then yes, we’d be guessing. The Bible is the one literary device that makes bold claims. The Bible is full of words that are attributed directly to Him. “Thus says the Lord God”, “And the Lord spoke”, etc.. etc.. What makes the Bible so compelling is it’s authorship.

            https://answersingenesis.org/the-word-of-god/3-unity-of-the-bible/

          • OldLefty March 3rd, 2015 at 4:13 pm

            That is what every believer of EVERY religion says.

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 3:23 pm

            Oh baby, you’re in for it now. Tree is our resident prosthelytizer, and he’s quite proficient on lecturing to anybody that will listen, on his god. We’re not really sure as to who/what his god is, but we know he/she/it’ss really pissed off all the time and is always threatening to put infidels in a hell, where they will burn forever and ever, amen.
            .
            Pay no attention to him. You should see some of the real doozies he posts here sometimes. He’s antsy for the Armageddon because he thinks his god is going to give him a big mansion in the sky once he passes on.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 3:34 pm

            I don’t mind an occasional discussion about theology as long as it’s mutually respectful. Celebrate diversity, right?

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 3:57 pm

            Debates can be mutually beneficial, but trees isn’t, by any stretch of the imagination, diverse. His god is the true god, and his bible is the undisputed word of God. No questions asked. No way, no how. His religion is right and everybody else is wrong.
            .
            Like I said, he’s a bit strange, but every once in a while when he goes on one of his Muslim hating rants, he piques our dander and shakes things up around here.
            .
            By the way, I like the way you debate. You’re open minded – very unusual for a conservative.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 4:12 pm

            “By the way, I like the way you debate.”

            Thank you. It’s a great compliment.

            In a room full of conservatives, I would be (and have been) branded a liberal. The labels we assign to ourselves are way too simplistic.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 3:37 pm

            I wonder if Trees realizes that I am one of the resident conservatives. LOL

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 3:44 pm

            He’s one, too. So you have something in common =)

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 3:53 pm

            Funny thing… The church I grew up in was a UCC church named Trinity United Church of Christ. Same name as Rev. Wright’s church, but a different town and a very different pastor. UCC is generally regarded as one of the more liberal Protestant churches. I’m conservative, but I can appreciate both sides of most arguments. I do enjoy the give-and-take on this blog. We all have our pet peeves, but I think it’s good that we’re talking and listening to one another. Don’t ever stop challenging me. Sometimes I’m full of crap. Just ask my wife.

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 4:16 pm

            I, too, had a religious upbringing. I spent 8 years in the Catholic school. The worst beating I received was when I disagreed with Sr. Pascal. She insists Jews weren’t going to heaven because they refused to believe Jesus was the son of God. I disagreed and she dragged me out of class and whacked me on the head with the giant crucifix she had dangling from her belt.
            .
            My problem is, if something doesn’t make sense to me, it can’t be true. I still don’t understand the 3-gods-in-one concept, and why God would send his son to suffer and die so “our sins can be forgiven”. God can’t do that Himself? I thought He was omnipotent; I thought He could do anything. He’s capable of causing great floods and hurricanes, but He can’t forgive sins? What’s up with that? But I digress…….
            .
            The people here are nice. Sometimes the debates get heated and people say nasty things, but by the next post, all is forgiven. So keep posting. We love the debate.

          • trees March 3rd, 2015 at 5:20 pm

            My problem is, if something doesn’t make sense to me, it can’t be true. I still don’t understand the 3-gods-in-one concept, and why God would send his son to suffer and die so “our sins can be forgiven”. God can’t do that Himself? I thought He was omnipotent; I thought He could do anything. He’s capable of causing great floods and hurricanes, but He can’t forgive sins? What’s up with that? But I digress…….

            The “Son”, is God. Christ is God born into humanity, and He came into the world expressly for the purposes of redemption. If the punishment for sin is death, then all who sin die. Christ, who knew no sin, became sin for us and died. He gave His life in exchange for ours. All who accept His sacrifice are forgiven, and will inherit eternal life. God has promised to recreate the heavens and the earth, after the judgment, and all who have placed their faith in the purchase of the cross will be joint heirs and will be raised up, (resurrected, as Christ was resurrected), to eternal life. It’s a simple promise, that you will have life, and have it more abundantly. The pursuit of wealth is a fools errand, and the vast majority of humankind chase after riches, never acquiring enough wealth to satisfy…..we pursue records, trying to establish something that will last forever, we seek immortality. We desire to live forever, and death is terrifying… We fear death, and for good reason. There is a real finality in dying. The atheist believes in eternity, as the atheist believes that death is eternal for the individual who dies. But, if eternity is real, then the prospect of eternal life is equally real….. An eternal God has always been, and an eternal God is the only being capable of offering eternal existence….

            How do I know I worship the true God?

            His promise is beautiful in it’s simplicity.

            That I should have eternal life, and an eternity of living.

            Think about the times you have been most happy.

            For me, my happiest days were those spent with family and friends in celebration. A good meal, good company, and familial love. Can you imagine a world community where the ambition for wealth and power were non-existent? Where companionship and the concern for another’s well being were the focus?

          • trees March 3rd, 2015 at 4:06 pm

            He’s antsy for the Armageddon because he thinks his god is going to give him a big mansion in the sky once he passes on.

            I have never expressed hatred for Muslims, nor have I ever engaged in apocalyptic discussion. You like to try and hang false narratives on those whom you dislike.

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 4:26 pm

            My apologies. I should have prefaced my statement with “In my opinion”, since, even though the implication is there, I don’t know for a fact that you hate Muslims.
            .
            And trees, you’ve been posting here for years. I have a pretty good memory of what I’ve read, but can’t remember the exact post where I’ve read your rant on the apocalypse.

          • burqa March 7th, 2015 at 3:41 pm

            I hesitate to speak for trees, but what “accepting Christ” to me is at one point in one’s life, he or she gets to where they believe in their heart and say with their mouth that Jesus Christ is the son of God and rose from the dead. Some take it to mean something that goes on, time-wise, but in practice such a thing tends to ebb and flow from day to day.
            No person has to witness this, and it is no one else’s business. It’s between you and God, period.

            As for the physics section of your post, it’s all quite fascinating and one thing we can expect is that new discoveries will be made that will be even stranger than some of the things we hear about string theory and quantum mechanics and all that other stuff. It’s beyond me, I’m no physicist. But the whole idea of what God is and what spirit is and some other things involve something or other that is in something like another dimension beyond what we ordinarily comprehend. Like love, we may not be able to put it on a slide under a microscope, but we know it – whatever it is – is there. We just know it and have a natural desire to increase our understanding of it.

          • burqa March 4th, 2015 at 6:23 pm

            Beautifully put. I much prefer to have this sort of discussion online.
            I used to know a Muslim family who ran a grocery store in town, and were just as nice as could be. They would give “credit” to the poor who shopped there and even though there was a lot of profit in it, chose to stop selling alcoholic beverages because they saw what it was doing to some people. After 9/11 they sold the business and I have seen none of them since.
            The same thing happened to some Sikhs who ran a gas station I used to patronize. After 9/11, they sold the business.

            In Paris I made friends with a few Muslims and another guy who was a Muslim who converted to Christianity. Fine, generous, humble people, all.

            I think where we agree is that characteristics foiund in human nature are not bound by nationality, race or spiritual beliefs. People who are atheists, agnostics or adherents to a particular faith are all subject to the same temptations and are likewise capable of doing the same good.
            This seems obviously logical to me, but I repeatedly come across people who want to believe whatever group(s) they choose to hate are unique.
            What keeps coming back to me is the lessons we learned in my youth during the civil rights struggles and in the women’s liberation movement about stereotypes and it disappoints me that the same lesson has to be taught over and over.
            All this does is widen divisions between us, cause unnecessary strife and harm, and also impedes progress.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 5th, 2015 at 11:29 am

            “People who are atheists, agnostics or adherents to a particular faith are all subject to the same temptations and are likewise capable of doing the same good.”
            That is also my working assumption. I have difficulty believing in any religious principle that results in God favoring one person over another. For example, many people believe it is their duty to pray for the sick. But if praying for the sick actually makes a difference, what would that say about God?
            If God is omniscient and has boundless love, then I think it’s kind of insulting to God to keep praying for things. If there is a God, and if God is omniscient, then there is absolutely nothing I can tell him that He doesn’t already know. And if God has the power to influence physical events, then who am I to dictate how those events should unfold?
            Do you remember the shooting that occurred several years ago in an Amish school at Nickel Mines PA? A TV reported conducted an off-camera interview with an Amish woman. She asked the woman if the Amish ever pray for things, such as rain for example. The woman responded by saying “We don’t pray for rain. We wait for rain. And we thank God when it comes.”.
            I don’t know whether a higher power exists. I don’t feel a compelling need to answer that question. If God does exist, it seems clear to me that God did not intend for us to have that kind of certainty.
            Have you ever leaned over a railing on the balcony of a tall building and felt the hairs stand up on the back of your neck because of the stark reality that you could end it all with one small step? Nobody talks about “faith in gravity”, or “sinning against gravity”. If you sin against gravity, the results are certain. It takes no strength of character, and no difficult sacrifices, and “faith” is not at issue.
            If we could be as certain about God as we are about gravity, then there would be no need for faith. Faith is the purpose to which we dedicate our lives in the *absence* of certainty.

          • burqa March 7th, 2015 at 3:18 pm

            Well, there’s a lot there and I’m going to stifle the impulse to go into detail.
            But first, I like to find agreement and recognize it is too much to ask anyone to believe precisely as I do. For one thing, besides one of us being wrong and the other right, there is also the possibility both are wrong and also the certainty that over time our views change if we are growing, because all growth means change of one sort or another.
            One thing I doubt I’ll change is my certainty that there is a God.
            My own beliefs can’t be boxed up and labeled as some would wish. I have significant differences with all the major denominations and over time the stress I place on various things has changed.

            Stepping back to take things in a wide view, I see Christianity boiling down to 2 main things.
            One, we have been given certain things in love by God, one of which is that love.
            Two, we are to react in love, with that love.
            If something falls outside of that love it has to be set aside or discarded, because this love is over all and we are called back to it and shown repeatedly how it must remain the highest priority.

            Faith itself is a huge topic. “Pistis” is used in at least a half dozen different ways and failure to see which category a particular usage is can lead to confusion. To give one example, there is a verse that says “Before faith came, we were kept under the Law.” Yet in the Hebrews 11 great cloud of witnesses we see repeated examples of people who lived before the Law who did this or that through faith. The apparent contradiction is resolved once we see the different usages indicate different categories of faith.

            One additional thing we have is hope. This hope, when focused on and developed is a powerful thing. It gives strength when strength seems gone and joy in times of great difficulty so we can do what we need to. We hope for the return in love, as we do all else, in my opinion.
            I also believe prayer works. I have had too many answered to believe otherwise.

            Lastly, I look at myself and see the changes I have had in what I believed and changes I have seen in others. Therefore, just because someone is an atheist or has radically different views than mine on spiritual matters today it does not mean that will always be the case, so the worst thing for me to do would be to cause someone to dig in their heels and to plop a name on them, locking them in place. People change, sometimes in surprising ways and it is a good idea to give them room to do so.

            Sorry I didn’t get specific to much of what you said, but I kind of covered them in my way.

            Apropos of nothing, I’ll toss in that forgiveness in love is central to Christianity and is also an incredibly powerful, liberating thing that can be a tremendous blessing to both parties. In the last year I have been shaken to my core at the power of forgiveness, even though I thought I knew the subject well.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 9th, 2015 at 10:41 pm

            I’ve been thinking about your last replies over the past couple of days regarding hope, prayer, and forgiveness. Although I no longer call myself a Christian, I try to live each day in a way that is pleasing to God, and I believe that spreading hope and offering forgiveness are key parts of that. The people who have most deeply affected my life are the people who gave me hope and who forgave me when I caused them pain. I don’t have anything else to add. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 12:19 am

            And shortly after 9/11, President Bush made reference to a “crusade” against terrorism, which passed almost unnoticed by Americans, but rang alarm bells in Europe. It raised fears that the terrorist attacks could spark a ‘clash of civilizations’ between Christians and Muslims, sowing fresh winds of hatred and mistrust.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 12:42 am

            Wow. Really? You think he intentionally used that word after explicitly making the point that Islam is a religion of peace?

            Do you remember the time when President Carter got sick in Mexico and then jokingly referred to having a case of “Montezuma’s Revenge” while speaking to a Mexican audience? Do you think that Carter intended to dredge up that ugly chapter in history?

            Do you ever use the word “barbaric” or “barbarian”? Are you aware that this word was once understood to refer to the people of the Barbary Coast of Africa, including the northern coast of Libya where ISIS members recently reinforced the stereotype by decapitating 25 people on the beach. When you use the word “barbarian” in the presence of someone from that region, you might well be insulting them by insinuating that all of the people living in that region are ruthlessly violent.

            Do you ever use the word “gypped”? Do you realize that this word originated from a negative stereotype of gypsies (Roma people) as being thieves?

            How about “gap-toothed”? I happen to have a large diastema between my front teeth. My dentist says it is the largest he has ever seen. A child once asked me “How did you lose that tooth?”. I’ve got pretty thick skin, so it doesn’t bother me. But there’s no denying that people make assumptions about the intelligence and/or social status of someone having a large diastema.

            My point is that our language is *full* of words and phrases that have their origins in ugly stereotypes or ugly historical events.

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 1:08 am

            I have no idea what Bush meant when he used the word “crusade”. I only know it struck fear into the hearts of Muslims worldwide.

            And shortly thereafter, he ordered the invasion of Iraq, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children – not to mention the deaths of 4000+ of our finest.

          • whatthe46 March 3rd, 2015 at 1:58 am

            which was a lie, in order to invade.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 3rd, 2015 at 3:51 am

            Yes, but consider the broader context:

            http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/141209_Charts-armedconflicts.jpg.CROP.promovar-mediumlarge.jpg

            http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 9:52 am

            It doesn’t matter. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people lost their lives because the Bush administration lied us into an unnecessary war. I’m going to pat myself on the back and say I was one of those who didn’t buy that “smokin’ gun/mushroom cloud” analogy. I remember his daddy.

          • whatthe46 March 3rd, 2015 at 1:56 am

            I think the issue is you have these “muslims”
            who are not living by the true meaning of the faith, just as you have these “christians”
            that are not living by the true meaning of the faith. And these “Christians” here, are outspoken in ignorance and
            hatred and bigotry and racism. Just because
            they are not beheading anyone, doesn’t make them any less disgusting.

          • burqa March 4th, 2015 at 9:28 pm

            I think chopping heads off of dozens of people is more disgusting than than ugly name-calling.
            Both are obviously wrong but I can’t equate the two….

          • jybarz March 9th, 2015 at 11:23 pm

            I disagree a lot of things what W did or stand for, but his pronouncement about Muslims and Christians being peaceful and his presence in Selma march inauguration shows a glimmer of humanity in him. The Iraq war and financial crisis were unforgiveable and he was complicit along with Chenney especially and GOP.

          • Robert M. Snyder March 9th, 2015 at 11:58 pm

            29 Democratic senators, including Joe Biden, John Kerry, and Diane Feinstein, voted for the Iraq War Resolution in 2002.

            82 Democratic representatives also voted for the resolution.

            Bush didn’t use an executive action. He sought and obtained bipartisan approval from the US Congress.

          • trees March 2nd, 2015 at 10:40 pm

            And the actions of a few crazies does not represent the actions of the whole Muslim community, regardless of what you may think.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Afghanistan

          • whatthe46 March 3rd, 2015 at 1:31 am

            two can play that game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

          • whatthe46 March 3rd, 2015 at 1:31 am

            try this one: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Native_Americans_and_Christianity

          • whatthe46 March 3rd, 2015 at 1:49 am

            and that’s just the beginning.

          • burqa March 4th, 2015 at 9:25 pm

            Bunya: “And the actions of a few crazies does not represent the actions of the whole Muslim community, regardless of what you may think.”

            You’re getting closer to agreeing with what I’ve been saying all along about stereotypes……all that’s needed is consistency on your part and then we can link arms, singing, while skipping merrily down the Yellow Brick Road…………

          • burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 10:02 pm

            A class in logic or debate is called for.
            There one learns the logical fallacy of arguing from the particular to the general – in this case one person referred to as a “pastor” being conflated with “Christians.”

          • burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 9:59 pm

            What have I ever said that supports your contention that I am a “fundamentalist”?

            You are making that up, just as you are likewise making it up when you say I “only see a “problem” when Muslims are involved.”

            I have consistently objected to false stereotypes of Muslims, Christians, Jews, gays, immigrants and racial groups. When I have objected here to one of those groups being stereotyped, I have also pointed out that it is likewise wrong to do so regarding other groups.

            You tell two lies about me in one sentence and then speak of others whom you think “embarrass themselves.”

          • Bunya March 3rd, 2015 at 9:41 am

            They are not lies. They are what I’ve observed from your posts. I suggest you go back and read some of the vile, disgusting things you’ve said and get back to me.

          • burqa March 4th, 2015 at 9:21 pm

            They are your allegations, so it is up to you to back them up.
            Whaya got?

      • burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 9:51 pm

        Try this on for size: recognize both as being wrong to do and both are not the sort of thing the overwhelming majority of Muslims and Christians are about.
        Therefore, to identify an entire group by a small minority that are radically different from the whole is weak thinking.

        There’s something odd about those who have such a strong impulse to hate that they hold views they know are illogical and inaccurate. Their insistence on refusing to judge the group by the overwhelming majority just gives an indication of the depth of the hatred.

  6. jasperjava March 1st, 2015 at 1:04 am

    Outside the Capitol, the protesters carried signs and shouted, “Allah, your pedophile leader!”

    Idiots. They can’t even distinguish between God and the prophet Mohammed (who may or may not have been a pedophile. autre temps, autre moeurs).

    “Allah” is just the Arabic word for God. Arab Christians (many of whom are being victimized by ISIL) also refer to the Christian God as “Allah”. That would be like ragging on Mexicans because they insist on praying to some deity called “Dios”.

    • burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 9:45 pm

      Excellent points.

    • mutny March 3rd, 2015 at 6:08 am

      Great explanation and analogy to those ignorant Okies.

  7. burqa March 2nd, 2015 at 9:43 pm

    OP: “Of course if you yell at Christians you’re a bigot. Yell at Muslims and you’re a God-fearing patriot.”

    For some, just the opposite is true.
    What I find strange is how some can see so clearly when the bigotry is addressed at one group but are blind when they see the same sort of thing directed at another.
    In general, wee see people on the Left who can see it when it is directed at Muslims, trying to stereotype the whole group with the actions of a tiny minority of extremists, but they are blind when the same sort of stereotype is applied to Christians.
    On the Right, we see people for whom it is the opposite.
    Both the Left and Right point out the inconsistency of the other side and the illogic of such stereotypes, as if to cal for consistency. But it is common for the same people objecting to Muslims being stereotyped to remain silent when Christians are being stereotyped; or for those who object to Christians being stereotyped remaining silent when they see Muslims stereotyped.

    Good grief, it is so obvious!
    It is wrong to stereotype both groups, just as it is wrong to stereotype other large groups by the actions of a few kooks who do not represent the whole.

    One would hope that Alan will soon get the point he was trying to make.

  8. mutny March 3rd, 2015 at 6:01 am

    It is unfortunate that such hatred and animosity get directed at Muslims because of the actions of a few.