Confederate Group Says American Flag More Racist Than Theirs
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D.B. Hirsch is a political activist, news junkie, and retired ad copy writer and spin doctor. He lives in Brooklyn, New York.
Real news. With snark, invective, and lots of links. Guaranteed behaving badly.
Roctuna April 9th, 2015 at 2:03 pm
And wouldn’t you know it, this is Louie Gohmert’s district. What a bunch of brain-dead, racist, gohmerts.
ExPFCWintergreen April 9th, 2015 at 2:28 pm
Texas Sons of Confederate Veterans spokesman Marshall Davis added, “All we want is to have a little parade to honor our heroes. What’s wrong with that?”
raypc800 April 9th, 2015 at 2:33 pm
This is all covered under the “SOURCE CREDIBILITY” section of the WWW. These people have NONE!!
arc99 April 9th, 2015 at 2:38 pm
I say bullsh*t to the confederate group.
Article 1 Section 9 paragraph 4 of the Constitution of the Confederate States of America
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
Amendment 13 United States Constitution
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.[1
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 9:51 pm
South Carolina seceded in December 1860 and the other states seceded between then and June 1861.
The 13th amendment was not ratified until December 1865.
After the Southern states seceded, there was no effort in Congress to end slavery until 1864, when a bill that would end slavery was defeated by a Congress made up of Northern congressmen.
While some northern states banned slavery, others did not and the U.S. Congress was fine with slavery continuing.
Even after secession, slaves were not safe once they crossed the lines into territory held by Union troops. This is why the Underground Railroad did not end at the Mason-Dixon line, but in Canada.
So while there were more slaves in the South, let us not kid ourselves about the support for slavery in the North before and during the War.
rg9rts April 9th, 2015 at 2:45 pm
The stars and bars is not the flag of the confederacy
arc99 April 9th, 2015 at 4:40 pm
True enough, it is not the “official” national flag of the Confederate States of America.
But I do not think that historical fact is relevant.
The Stars and Bars is a symbol carried into battle by troops who fought for a nation whose Constitution as I noted below, explicitly protected the “right” to own slaves.
rg9rts April 10th, 2015 at 1:36 am
It will twist the panties of all the red necks
dave-dr-gonzo April 9th, 2015 at 8:25 pm
I believe the proper term (if just to cheese off the knuckledraggers) is “Dixie Swastika.”
rg9rts April 10th, 2015 at 1:34 am
I ain’t in dixie…I’m about an hour from you depending on traffic
Larry Schmitt April 9th, 2015 at 5:02 pm
Their claim that the confederate flag flew over a slave nation for only four years is equivalent to a person being tried for murdering his parents, asking the court to have mercy on an orphan. No matter what the history professors claim is the “real” reason for the Civil War being fought, one of the reasons the South fought was to protect the right to own slaves, and one of the reasons the North fought was to end slavery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8VCbvMoCV8
arc99 April 9th, 2015 at 5:36 pm
If you read the secession statements, South Carolina and Texas particularly, there is absolutely no doubt that the cause of the war was slavery.
Also, in a speech now known as the Cornerstone Speech, Jefferson Davis’ second-in-command, VP Alexander Stephens made it clear that the cause of the war was slavery.
The fact that these revisionist historians born 100 years after the war ended are able to argue that slavery was only a minor or tangential issue simply illustrates how people accept truth as what they want to hear, not necessarily what actually happened.
Here is the secession statement from South Carolina. It barely mentions anything other than slavery.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp
Confederate States of America – Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union
,,,,
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 9:39 pm
What you say is true, but does not reflect the full range of the debate that had been going on for the previous 75 years or so.
When we read the discussions and debates of that period, we find there were other issues, such as taxation. If there had never been slavery, there would have been a strong incentive to secede, as at the time of the War there was nearly 5 times as many people in the North as the South, yet Northern exports were less than half those of the South and taxes on exports were a major source of revenue for the federal government.
The whole tenor of the debate changed just before the War when the Left became divided with the demise of the Whig party. This paved the way for a minority to seize power and secede from the union. Until this change in the political landscape, secessionists routinely lost elections.
There is a tendency among the weak-thinking among us to stereotype all Southerners as having identical views in our times and 150 years ago. This is a false notion.
We should also not gloss over the fact that had the War not taken place, slavery would have continued.
Another inconvenient fact for some is that in 1864, with no Southerners represented, the U.S. Congress voted down a proposed bill to abolish slavery. Lincoln’s executive order only freed the slaves in the South, but preserved that loathesome institution in the North. It was not until well after the War was over that slavery was abolished.
So we can’t say the North was fighting to abolish slavery.
One of the best authorities on the War, Bruce Catton, describes how Union troops were often recruited. It was not to go free the slaves, but to have a free hand at looting the South of her riches.
So let’s not kid ourselves into thinking the North was somehow anti-slavery when it was not.
arc99 April 9th, 2015 at 10:20 pm
Never said the north was anti-slavery.
I am saying that claims that slavery was not the primary cause of the war are completely contradicted by the written record left by the political leadership of the Confederate States.
Let us not kid ourselves into thinking that slavery was not the primary reason for secession when documents and speeches left behind, say exactly the opposite.
Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America, tells us very clearly that slavery was the cause as he cites Thomas Jefferson’s prediction that slavery would be the most likely cause of the dissolution of the union. .
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.asp
Alexander H. Stephens (1812-1883):
Cornerstone Address, March 21, 1861
..
But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact.
.
..
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.]
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 10:40 pm
Indeed, you didn’t say that about the North. I brought it up and I made other points I believe to be accurate. The North should not get a pass for their approval of slavery.
At the time they actually seceded, slavery was indeed the major cause of secession, but it was not the only one and we should not oversimplify.
The issue of whether a state could secede for any reason had not been settled.
Remember, there was a debate that was settled when slaves were only counted as a part of a person when it came to determining the number of representatives a state could have. That was in the 1780s, as I recall. This is but one of a number of debates that dragged on between the Constitutional Convention and the outbreak of the Civil War.
From our earliest days there was a sort of division between Northern, more industrialized states and the largely agricultural South.
Because so much revenue came in through tariffs and other taxes related to trade, many in the South came to feel they were paying more than their fair share.
You also did not deny the points I made about slavery in the North. I added those to the discussion because there are those who seem to think slavery only took place in the South and that the North was on an anti-slavery campaign and it was not.
There seems to be a train of thought that racism in America is confined to the South, despite plenty of evidence we have seen in this forum. Human nature spans dotted lines on maps.
We should be more concerned with finding answers and moving our whole nation forward in reducing racism rather than using the issue to reinforce bigoted stereotypes some others around here have for the South.
cogitoergodavesum April 9th, 2015 at 8:06 pm
Oppenheimer says, “Just nuke the South, Mr President.”
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 9:20 pm
….and we on the Left see the rhetoric of the Tea Party as “extreme.”
It’s bad enough to have the Tea Party extremists on the Right. This country does not need a Tea Party of the Left that espouses it’s own kooky extremism.
When extremism is the problem, the solution is not more of the problem. Otherwise what you’re doing is bailing water into a sinking boat.
burqa April 10th, 2015 at 8:23 pm
Calling for the mass murder of millions of Americans is awful. It is also awful that I am the only one here who objects to that kind of rhetoric.
There once was a time when such a thing would be roundly criticized here.
Foundryman April 9th, 2015 at 8:09 pm
What do you call people who honor traitors to the country as heroes? Let’s not pretend the confederacy wasn’t only a secession to protect slavery but an attempt to overthrow the entire Union which makes them all traitors.
Why should they be allowed to fly the confederate flag at all? The confederacy was an enemy of the united states, there is no honor in that.
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 9:13 pm
Um, no.
It was an attempt to secede and establish another nation. If people who agreed to be married got to the point they can no longer get along they get a divorce. It was the same sort of thinking and had been debated and not really settled until the War.
Looking back, I happen to think it was a bad idea and it appears you do too.
Hyperbole is not needed to make the point.
The issue of whether Confederates were “traitors” was decided at the time, too. All they had to do was go to a parole station and swear allegiance to the U.S. and they were allowed to then go free.
Many historians agree that Lincoln had the right idea in his second inaugural address where he summed up his policy toward the South and putting the country back together when he used the phrase “with malice toward none and charity for all.”
The vindictive policy of Reconstruction took a far harder line and magnified division at a time when unity was called for. Like you, they felt taking an extreme line and executing people was the way to go. The division inspired by these hard-liners continued and it took 75 years or so for the South to recover economically.
Just as criminal carpetbaggers took advantage of the Union victory to loot what the Union army didn’t and to further division and resentment, we have the same sort of thing today. Some seem to think they can use the race issue as cover for them to express their hatred towards their fellow Americans. It’s pretty sad to see people try to find ways to be bigoted and employ stereotypes toward an entire region of America, but there you have it.
These are not the people who bring unity or contribute to solutions. Indeed, clinging to their bigotry is so important to them they would prefer there be no solution.
William April 9th, 2015 at 10:22 pm
Anyway, that’s not the confederate flag.
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 11:10 pm
People should be aware that one reason people fly the battle flag is just to piss people off who try to come in and obnoxiously try to run their lives for them.
Folks up North are not experiencing the sort of flood of refugees coming across our borders with states like Kentucky an Pennsylvania, trying to escape the oppressive living conditions up North. At least the last 2, and probably results of other censuses show that the South is the part of the country where most Americans move to.
You should see them, moving here for a better after leaving everything behind. They often come malnourished with children sporting distended bellies. This is no surprise, given the stuff they eat up there.
They eat something called “scrod.” Now I have no idea just what “scrod” is, one supposes it is a salt-or freshwater fish or a crustacean. Something like that. Whatever it is, there is no damned way I’ll ever put something called “scrod” in my mouth.
Here, we have a world-famous cuisine distinctive to the region that they can have instead of daily rations of scrod.
They also come to live amid our culture and the extraordinary beauty found in Dixie. We have a wonderful climate, but so does the Southwest, West, Puerto Rico and our Pacific island territories and these poor scrod-eaters aren’t flocking THERE.
They’re like boat people and sometimes they have difficulties in fitting in and they try to impose their strange notions on how to live that they had back in the land of the scrod eaters. When they follow the old maxim about “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” things go fine.
cecilia April 9th, 2015 at 11:21 pm
I wonder, if certain states secede will they try to reinstate slavery?
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 11:23 pm
Come now.
cecilia April 9th, 2015 at 11:25 pm
no, I’m really curious.
burqa April 9th, 2015 at 11:43 pm
Well the answer is no.
And you will not see any states really try to secede, either.
Do not confuse a few kooks and crazies with the overwhelming majority. These nitwits talking secession are few, but loud. They are outliers who may be safely ignored.
If the Democratic Party would get its act together, it could be far more successful in the South. Unfortunately, they let the GOP get away with dominating the debate with wedge issues.
Also helping to make it more difficult for the Democratic Party to make headway in the South are people like Alan Colmes who is biased toward Dixie. Rather than accurately portray liberalism and make the sort of arguments that would gain support down South for the Left, we see posts like this one (and yes, I see it was put up by Anomaly100) that tend to get across the message to Southerners that liberals do not like them.
cecilia April 9th, 2015 at 11:49 pm
thank you
I know there are smart, caring people who happen to live in “the south” but it’s sad to see the loudmouths idiots taking center stage.
I agree that Democrats – and other groups – seem to be doing a piss poor job of communicating in these areas. Nothing will improve there if people don’t get their act together.
burqa April 10th, 2015 at 12:02 am
Yes indeed. You go to their homes and when they let you in the first thing they ask is whether you’ve eaten and even if you ssay yes they start getting stuff out for a mini feast.
Rural Americans have far less spent on them in government programs than urban Americans, and the GOP has tried to make that worse for those in need. But the Democrats do a crappy job of pointing this out.
I recall a few years ago seeing a stat that most citizens of Mississippi who were elligible to vote were African American but the Democrats do a lousy job of getting them registered and to the polls on Election Day.
We have a reputation for graciousness and courtesy and were you to visit me and my kin you’d go home pleased with the way you were treated.
illinoisboy1977 April 10th, 2015 at 11:20 am
“The American flag flew over a slave nation for over 100 years. The Confederate flag flew over a slave nation for four years. By comparison, the American flag is 25 times more a slave flag.”
I wonder how many people are actually swayed by this asinine, simplistic argument.