Iowa Republican: Christians Should Be Favored Under U.S. Law
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We should allow all those lesser faiths to have First Amendment rights. That would be so good of us. But the law should favor the one true faith, says an Iowa Republican official. This came in response to a Wiccan prayer delivered at the statehouse.
Tamara Scott, an Iowa member of the Republican National Committee who is also a lobbyist for The Family Leader, struck a similar note in her remarks to the forum, saying that the Wiccan prayer and the invocation delivered by a Muslim imam the previous day showed the need to teach Christian-nation history in public schools.
Scott joked that she had prayed for a storm to greet the Wiccan woman that morning, before telling the audience that the non-Christian prayers at the statehouse showed that “when we’re not willing to defend our God in the public square, we shouldn’t be surprised when others try to replace Him.”
…“We shouldn’t be surprised when others do differently and expect differently and think that religion is just about equality, because it’s not,” she continued. “There’s only one true God. And the Bible’s quite clear about what happens when we refuse to tell the truth and we allow others to tell a wrong truth. That’s where we’re at. We’ve been neglectful, we’ve been very neglectful. So no one even spoke about the imam being there yesterday or the Muslims that were all around the center of the capitol, talking and evangelizing about their way of life.
“Do they have that freedom? Absolutely. But the shame is that so little people know the truth about the heritage, the Christian heritage — I’m sorry, Mr. President, but we are, we were a Christian nation and we were founded on Christian values.”
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FatRat April 14th, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Extra equality for some, lesser amounts of equality for others?
http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-all-animals-are-equal-but-some-animals-are-more-equal-than-others-george-orwell-139688.jpg
Larry Schmitt April 14th, 2015 at 4:46 pm
You’re wrong lady, this is not now, and has never been, a christian nation, and was not founded on “christian values” (whatever they are). The word Jesus was not used once in any of the documents produced at the founding of the nation.
burqa April 14th, 2015 at 6:59 pm
Of course you are correct.
Nearly all of the Founding Fathers were Christians and most were pretty devout, but they designed a secular government with a view toward having a society where faith could flourish without the difficulties that arose from having an official state religion.
Early on the individual states adopted official religions, but this, too, went by the wayside pretty quickly.As I recall, the last of them was eliminated sometime before about 1815.
You asked about “Christian values.” A study of the lives of these Founding fathers reveal men with strong moral standards and who often attributed them to their faith.
I think the mistake some make is while accurately pointing out the secular nature of the government established by the Constitution, they tilt the see-saw too far the other way and seem to want a society free of faith. This is not at all what the Founding Fathers desired. They wanted faith to flourish because they saw the value of faith in society. They had no problem with the government taking steps to encourage faith. For example, when they made rules and regulations for settling the territories in the west, a new town had to set aside land for churches.
I do not know whether Jesus was mentioned in any of the founding documents, but on the topic or religious freedom, the document one must begin with when studying the issue opens with:
“Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to
influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible ….”
– Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom – the document from which religious freedom in the Constitution was based on.
http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-02-02-0132-0004-0082
Larry Schmitt April 14th, 2015 at 7:17 pm
But these self-proclaimed christians try to claim “strong moral standards” as being exclusive to christians. People of all religious beliefs, and even no religious beliefs, have strong moral standards. And these phonies seem to think that theirs is the only true religion, and that being christian automatically makes them right and moral.
burqa April 14th, 2015 at 8:24 pm
Excellent point. That whole “true religion” thing is referred to in the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, to which I referred. We should respect the beliefs or lack of belief of others more and move in a more positive direction – seeing how we who differ can get along and all have a good time.
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 7:21 pm
Many of our Founding Fathers were NOT christians, they were Deists. That included our first five presidents. The better known founders among them; Paine, Franklin, and a few more whose names pop up in history class.
burqa April 14th, 2015 at 8:20 pm
Franklin was a Quaker.
At the time they fought the Revolution, came up with the Articles of Confederation and later, the Constitution and Bill of Rights, none of them were Deists.
Deism hadn’t come along yet..
Also, Deism was not some other religion, nor was it atheism, either. It was simply a subset of thought within Christianity, like Liberation Theology that emerged among some in the Catholic Church.
Spend time reading the collected papers of those FFs and you will find many references to their faith and the churches they belonged to. I happen to be typing this less than 50 yards from a church attended by Washington.
I know of no Deist church attended by Washington, but he certainly attended St. George’s Episcopal Church here on Princess Anne St., as well as Falls Church and Pohick Church north of here.
CandideThirtythree April 14th, 2015 at 11:00 pm
Washington quit going to church, the only reason he went in the first place was because his wife wanted him to. Anyone who has ever been married knows that a spouse will often do things that they don’t want to do just to appease their spouse and that was the case with Washington.
The things Washington said about religion is all the proof you need that he was NOT into religion at all. He never once claimed to be a Christian and he usually talked against the christian religion. But if you won’t take his own word for it, how about the word of dozens of others including the funding fathers and the ministers in his city?
“Dr.
Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed
General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was
observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a
word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and
they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length
to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he
observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every
article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over
without notice.”
— Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson’s Works, Vol.
iv., p. 572. (Asa Green “was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was
chaplain to congress during Washington’s administration.” — Farrell
Till)
“I
know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and
believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington
believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did.”
— Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800,
quoted from Jefferson’s Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 (“Gouverneur Morris was
the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a
member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New
York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the
skeptical views of French Freethinkers.” — John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)
“When
Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the
Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days
when the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was to be administered,
Washington’s custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and
walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the
congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook
to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was
heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had
thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the
Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, ‘he absented himself altogether from church.'”
— The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New
York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the “Religion of the
Presidents,” published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted
from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26
“In
regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that
General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which
I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual
communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been
obliged to answer them am as I now do you.”
— The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of
Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ’s Church in
Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he
happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of
Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin
Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27
Most of the founding fathers were outright hostel towards the christian religion because of the English monarchy forcing a state religion on everyone in their empire. Even a second grader knows about why people left England, I am truly surprised that a full grown man as yourself would not be aware of this.
“The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity….
“Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism.”
— The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15
CandideThirtythree April 14th, 2015 at 11:00 pm
Washington quit going to church, the only reason he went in the first place was because his wife wanted him to. Anyone who has ever been married knows that a spouse will often do things that they don’t want to do just to appease their spouse and that was the case with Washington.
The things Washington said about religion is all the proof you need that he was NOT into religion at all. He never once claimed to be a Christian and he usually talked against the christian religion. But if you won’t take his own word for it, how about the word of dozens of others including the funding fathers and the ministers in his city?
“Dr.
Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed
General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was
observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a
word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and
they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length
to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he
observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every
article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over
without notice.”
— Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson’s Works, Vol.
iv., p. 572. (Asa Green “was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was
chaplain to congress during Washington’s administration.” — Farrell
Till)
“I
know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and
believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington
believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did.”
— Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800,
quoted from Jefferson’s Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 (“Gouverneur Morris was
the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a
member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New
York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the
skeptical views of French Freethinkers.” — John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)
“When
Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the
Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days
when the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was to be administered,
Washington’s custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and
walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the
congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook
to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was
heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had
thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the
Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, ‘he absented himself altogether from church.'”
— The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New
York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the “Religion of the
Presidents,” published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted
from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26
“In
regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that
General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which
I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual
communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been
obliged to answer them am as I now do you.”
— The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of
Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ’s Church in
Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he
happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of
Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin
Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27
Most of the founding fathers were outright hostel towards the christian religion because of the English monarchy forcing a state religion on everyone in their empire. Even a second grader knows about why people left England, I am truly surprised that a full grown man as yourself would not be aware of this.
“The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity….
“Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism.”
— The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Washington refused to take communion and was often the first one out the door at the end of church services. He often used Deist terms and expressions. He was not a christian.
CandideThirtythree April 15th, 2015 at 12:00 am
Exactly, that is what I just said but burka does not seem to understand that and is still calling the founding fathers christians, they most certainly were not and a few of them were outright hostel toward religion. They were very smart men who could not tolerate ignorance and division and they saw religion as a vehicle for both.
“”Whenever we read the
obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions,
the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is
filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than
the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt
and brutalize mankind.” ~ Thomas Paine.
“If we look back into
history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find
few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution.
The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans,
but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church
of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon
the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice
themselves both here (England) and in New England.” ~ Ben Franklin
“And the
day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme
being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the
fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But
we may hope that the dawn of reason and
freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this
artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine
doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.” —
Thomas Jefferson’s letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 8:52 pm
The records of the churches they attended contradict you.
CandideThirtythree April 16th, 2015 at 7:30 am
You are a congenital LIAR and a troll and everyone here knows it, so just who do you think you are talking to?
We are the educated intellectuals that you and your people hate, preferring instead to worship ignorance and slovenly behavior.
Just keep lying, I am sure that is how you keep convincing yourself of the lies right wingers tell you, but we don’t need it.
jasperjava April 17th, 2015 at 5:01 am
Why is it so important to you that you be right about this, to the point of calling names and proclaiming yourself an “educated intellectual”?
Some of the Founding Fathers were Deist, a few were atheist, many were Christian. The fact that some were Christian shouldn’t offend you. They were not holy-roller snake-handling evangelical fundamentalists, if that’s what worries you.
CandideThirtythree April 17th, 2015 at 9:32 am
I did NOT coin the phrase, the republicans did and they did it as an epithet not a compliment. The right wingers disparage intelligence and that is why they lie about the founding fathers being christians, because everyone knows that you can’t be both!
burqa April 18th, 2015 at 12:16 am
Good points.
Even more pertinent is we probably all agree on the thread topic, which is it it ridiculous to favor any faith under American law.
“Educated intellectuals” know to support their arguments with primary sources and will go to the best historians that can be found. This is what I do.
I’m still giggling at the memory of this “educated intellectual” calling me a RWNJ.
Yep, that, and the namecalling are how “educated intellectuals” talk!
Damn, I’m almost willing to cancel my sailing trip. This guy is getting to be fun.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 8:39 pm
Namecaller.
I win again!
trees April 20th, 2015 at 1:54 pm
Interesting read. When your opponent cites their intellectual superiority without actually demonstrating it…….
Comical
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 1:07 am
The Founding Fathers did attend churches for many occasions. That doesn’t make them christians. Churches back then were often a place for community meetings and gatherings for non religious purposes. Washington attended church services to please his wife. Many a minister of the day have stated that Washington wasn’t a christian, did not ever take communion, and would leave at first opportunity.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 9:12 pm
So you claim, but without anything to verify.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 1:11 am
There was a sizable movement back in the late 18th and early 19th century that routinely tried to, and claimed that the Founding Fathers were christians, or were converted on their death beds to christianity. It is still going on today. Many folks buy into that nonsense and think that Deism is a subset of christianity; it’s not. They are separate and different. Some of the Deists back then were more critical of christianity than others.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 8:34 pm
I think you are making that up.
So far you have no primary sources, at best have secondary sources, have misattributed at least one quote and exaggerated another. You have not cited a single recognized historian to support your claims.
Primary sources – Washington’s words and actions such as the financial support and service as a church official not just contradict your claims, but as primary sources they trump the secondary and thirdhand hearsay “evidence” you put forth.
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 8:48 pm
Above I gave a quote from his first inaugural address that indicates differently. Note his “… first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being”
Less than 50 yards from where I type is St. George’s Episcopal Church, where Washington, his brother Charles, his mother and sister attended. He was not known to be the first one out the door, indeed he was known to take a great interest in that church. Once during a service there was head an awful noise as the balcony began to detach from the wall and the people fled through the doors – and windows. Washington led the effort to do some rather extensive repair to the framing, plaster, trim and replacement of the windows broken in the melee.
St. George’s Episcopal:
http://www.stgeorgesepiscopal.net/
Washington was a frequent attendee of services at Pohick Church. It was not far from Mount Vernon, and George Mason, who also lived in the area, came often, too Both were vesrtymen and the minutes of the vestry survive. Note where it says “The Truro Parish Vestry Minutes reveal that the members took these duties seriously and performed them with great diligence” :
http://www.pohick.org/vestrybook.html
Please share some of these “Deist terms and expressions” that indicate he was not a Christian.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 12:59 am
I’ve never heard anyone claim Washington was an Atheist. He was a Deist. Any real historian will confirm that. Any quote sourced from David Barton should be dismissed as false.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 7:27 pm
You give no primary sources to support your allegation.
You speak of “real historians” but cite none.
Also, you overstate your claim of Washington taking communion. Your source is thirdhand, misidentified and only says he did not do it in Philadelphia. Taking communion is not proof of whether a person is a Christian, either.
I, on the other hand, have given multiple primary sources. I have quoted Washington and showed he was not just a member of Christian churches, but was a church official involved with administering their affairs.
I have read quite a bit about Washington and what you are trying to say does not comport with the actions and words of Washington I have posted.
I happen to have more than a passing interest in the subject, as one of my ancestors fought with Washington in the French and Indian War and the Revolution, and another ancestor married his sister. I also live where Washington spent a lot of time. I have made countless visits to churches he attended and helped administer.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 8:35 pm
Not taking communion IS a sign one is not a christian when one is a Deist. That’s why he didn’t take it as he did not believe in it or that jesus is in any way a ‘god’. The sources are plenty and those sources are clergy of the day that knew Washington and the rest.
The activist christians of the day called Jefferson an Atheist. hard to do if he was in anyway a christian.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 9:09 pm
You exaggerate the quote as if it means Washington never took communion and this is false. It was a thirdhand quote by someone not there who was speaking of Washington in Philadelphia.
Washington’s adopted daughter, who was certainly closer to Washington than this Bird guy, described taking communion with Washington at Pohick Church, where he not only attended, but gave a lot of money to and was involved in carrying out the ministry.
You can visit Pohick Church today, where Washington’s pew is roped off.
The quote given in Washington’s first inaugural address directly contradicts Deist theology.
You continue to avoid this primary source, for obvious reasons.
As I noted above, intolerance is frequently found in various sects of Christianity. We have seen it claimed that President Obama is not really a Christian but a Muslim. On Fox we can see clip of Rev. Wright used to imply he’s not a Christian “like us.” There are always purists who come along and claim all who do not believe as they do are heretics or infidels. It does not make it so.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 11:49 pm
You are exaggerating a thirdhand source who was not there and who was talking about GW in Philadelphia, not his whole life.
Given the work Washington was doiing at the time and those pressing on him for his time then, it is not surprising he would hurry from one meeting to another, if that is what happened.
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 8:30 pm
CandideThirtyThree: The things Washington said about religion is all the proof you need that he was NOT into religion at all.”
Washington’s words his first inaugural address, April 30, 1789 contradict you:
“Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men, more than the people of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.”
CandideThirtythree April 16th, 2015 at 7:42 am
You are a liar, that was NEVER uttered by Washington, you made that up whole cloth!
NONE OF THAT WAS IN THE LINK YOU POSTED!! … you are so evil… you learned that trick from Glen Beck!
You are just so sure that no one will ever check the links that you think you can lie with abandon!!! What you failed to remebemer is that you are not dealing with the morons of your own persuasion here, we don’t fall for your tricks!
Be off troll!!
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 12:56 am
“”The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity….”
Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson,1831
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 7:02 pm
History is packed with people of one sect accusing members of another sect to be “infidels.”
That’s how Martin Luther, John Knox and Roger Williams were viewed by others.
If you ever get around to actually reading American history, you will see Purritans, Anglicans, Catholics, Quakers, Baptists and Methodists being referred to as “heretics.”
In my life I’ve seen Catholics, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists referred to as “heretics.” Today we see Sunnis and Shiites accusing each other of being infidels. We see that talk coming from terrorists.
The way I research these things is to begin with primary sources, such as compilations of a person’s writings, their personal letters, and things they did.
You, on the other hand, confine yourself to secondary sources, which are trumped by primary sources.
This one is not even accurate as a secondary source.
You are wrong as to the author of that quote. Here historians correct the record:
http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2008/07/correction-in-historic-record-needed-on.html
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 8:31 pm
Dr. Bird knew the Founding Fathers. I consider that a ‘primary’ source. We also have the writings and letters of the Founding Fathers themselves. ‘Infidels’ as he uses it, are those that are critical of christianity or religion in general. I’ve not listed John Quincy Adams as a Deist as IIRC, he was a christian.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 8:59 pm
You have the wrong author for the quote.
Please give details and the historian who describes Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson’s relationship with George Washington.
I am not surprised you do not understand what a primary source is.
A primary source would be Washington’s words, which you have not cited.
I have done a little noodling around and this Bird guy as well as the real author of your quote appear to be fundamentalist types for whom everyone who does not agree with everything they believe in terms of faith makes them a heretic or infidel.
Really, I think you are making a mistake identifying yourself with this Bird guy. If I were you, I’d back off that guy and go to Washington’s words because otherwise my primary sources trump yours.
At least find recognized historians rather than someone with such bias. The American Heritage website is one that has essays by leading historians if you can’t find anything in the many volumes of Washington’s writings.
I have access to collections of Washington’s letters and other documents. There must be 20 big fat volumes or more in just one of several such collections I have access to.
The vestry records I linked to are also a primary source, because you will see Washington’s signature in there as well as his attendance at vestrymen’s meetings to conduct the ministry.
Dwendt44 April 18th, 2015 at 12:13 am
And none of Washington’s writings or letters have George claim to be a christian. No one ever claimed that Washington didn’t attend church service. He left before communion (never once took it) and sent a carriage back for the mrs.. Being on cordial relations with a cleric doesn’t make him a christian either.
And please don’t dig up the phoney prayer inscribed on a bronze tablet in St Paul’s Chapel. It’s a construct and Washington never said that prayer. I have the exact statement; it wasn’t a prayer.
Your so called primary source is in dispute as Washington never once said he was a christian. He never said much about his beliefs at all. I’ve quoted the clergy who knew Washington. A real quot is better than a doubtful ‘primary’ source. here’s a couple more quotes from clergy who knew Washington.
“Sir, Washington was a Deist.”
Rev. Dr. James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington attended with his wife.
“I do not believe that any degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would
prove General Washington to have been a believer in the Christian revelation further than
as may be hoped from his constant attendance upon Christian worship, in connection with
the general reserve of his character.”
Rev. Bird Wilson Dec. 1832
Suggested reading:
The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents: Franklin Steiner
“That
he was not just striking a popular attitude as a politician is revealed
by the absence of of the usual Christian terms: he did not mention
Christ or even use the word ‘God.’ Following the phraseology of the
philosophical Deism he professed, he referred to ‘the invisible hand
which conducts the affairs of men,’ to ‘the benign parent of the human
race.'”
— James Thomas Flexner, describing Washington’s first Inaugural Address, in George Washington and the New Nation (1783-1793)
Among many other
weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested, that it has a
tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which above all
things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men to a
mode of Worship which they do not profess.
— George Washington,
to John Hancock, then president of Congress, expressing opposition to a
congressional plan to appoint brigade chaplains in the Continental Army
(1777),
Dwendt44 April 18th, 2015 at 12:17 am
Apparently, when the right Reverand Abercrombie chided Washington for leaving before communion, Washington stopped attending on the Sundays that communion was served.
burqa April 18th, 2015 at 12:33 am
I take the word of his adopted daughter over yours as to whether Washington ever took communion.
Once again you are making stuff up.
I don’t know if Washington ever referred to himself being a Christian or not. His words and actions show reverence and much more than a passing involvement with Christianity that he could have avoided and still satisfied any social obligation.
You have not supported any of your claims with primary sourve and i have.
You have made claims about numerous historians but have cited none.
You have gotten authorship of a quote you hang your hat on wrong and have stretched an allegation of what happened in Philadelphia to cover the entire life of the man.
None of my primary sources are in question.
I gave you his words and his signature is in the records and he was a vestryrman and put his money into the churches I said he did.
Waashington’s words are not thoise of a Deist. He may have leaned toward some Deist beliefs toward the end of his life, but you have yet to address the words of his I posted nor have you found any primary sources yet.
You have not found words by Washington where he claims to be a Deist.
Dwendt44 April 18th, 2015 at 12:55 am
And I take the word of his granddaughter over you so called ‘primary’ sources.If Washington never said he was a christian, then you sources are meaningless. Sure he did display reverence and piety. So what? Deist can do that. He did support his wife’s church at her insistence. SO? As I did quote the clergy that gave the communion, and the churches he attended. I would think that that would have some weight. Of course, it seems facts don’t impress you much in this matter.
I’m tired of digging up quotes from those that knew Washington. HE WAS A DEIST, period.
You have no proof and I have a direct quote from the closest cleric to him.
A thinking person changes his beliefs when new facts come to light.
A religious person changes the facts to fit his beliefs.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 1:16 am
You’ll notice, in the quote that Burka offered above, Washington doesn’t mention jesus, or even god. He did, as he often did, use Deist terms and wordings.
CandideThirtythree April 17th, 2015 at 10:00 am
did you look at the link he provided? It was completely different than what he said was in the link…that is a FOX News ploy, straight out of Karl Rove’s playbook…tell people to look it up then count on them not doing it so that they will just take your word for it.
I never take anyone’s word for anything, I always look it up even if it was something I previously studied just to make sure that I am remembering it correctly. You should do the same.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 7:52 pm
Of COURSE he didn’t mention Jesus, Dunce44. That was not the way they talked back then.
Besides failing to offer primary sources, relying on secondary and misidentified thirdhand sources, you are trying to conflate manners and customs of the 21st century with those of the 18th century.
Deist theology did not claim that God was as closely involved in the lives of people, as Washington described Him directing “every step by which they have advanced.”
Primary sources, which you have none of, show that Washington’s words show he was a believer, his actions show he was a Christian believer and his position as a vestryman shows he was closely involved in the operation of the ministry.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 8:19 pm
You imply all that is needed is a reference to Jesus by Washington.
Some Delaware Indian chiefs asked Washington about getting their children educated. Washington replied:
“.. You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. …”
– George Washington’s Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 55.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 7:41 pm
Name caller!
I win again!
The quote begins in the second paragraph.
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 11:37 pm
Franklin was raised as a Puritan, his family hoped he’d enter the ministry. He tilted toward Deism as a teen and became a Deist in full some time later. He was never, as far as I could find, a Quaker.
“My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood
piously in the Dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several
points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation
itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the
sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect
on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists,
which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short,
I soon became a thorough Deist.”
Ben Franklin 1771 (autobiography)
Like many Founding Fathers, christian activists have tried the ‘convert’ them to christianity after their deaths. Those efforts have extended to equating Deism with Christianity, though they are two totally different concepts.
CandideThirtythree April 15th, 2015 at 12:51 am
“If we look back into
history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find
few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution.
The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans,
but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church
of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon
the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice
themselves both here (England) and in New England.” ~ Benjamin Franklin
He was NOT a Quaker, his parents might have been but since religion is not found on any string of our DNA, religion is not a trait passed down to the children.
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 8:01 pm
I have to disagree with you on the last point. I have seen too many examples of parents raising their children in the same churches the parents attended. No DNA is needed to do so, they just take the kids with them and what I have seen countless times is churches where adult members will mention that their family has been attending that church for generations,
CandideThirtythree April 16th, 2015 at 7:44 am
Science is your enemy because you are at least 2 standard deviations below the norm.
You do not even know what DNA is, so you are most certainly NOT smarter than a fifth grader.
Chinese Democracy April 15th, 2015 at 1:10 am
Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.
From: http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer/franklin/index.htmg
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 8:24 pm
Sorry, all I got was an error 404 message.
The term “Deism” is being thrown about here as if it is a synonym for atheism, when, in fact, it was nothing more than a strain of thought or a movement within Christianity. There have always been such movements within all the large faiths and many sects may be found within not just Christianity, but Islam, Bhuddism, Judaism and others.
What I said was true, they fought the Revolution, came up with the Articles of Confederation and then came up with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the first significant tract of Deism was even published.
Chinese Democracy April 15th, 2015 at 10:43 pm
you know I’m not going to get into some religious argument.. lol
CandideThirtythree April 17th, 2015 at 10:16 am
That is what he is counting on, everything he has said on the subject so far was 100% incorrect, and he is hoping that you will just take his word for it. DON’T!
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 12:45 am
Deism was not a subset of Christianity. The two beliefs were separate and different. Deism was found in the ancient Greeks and throughout much of prechristian Europe. It increased in prominence during the 1600’s and even more so after the enlightenment. During the late 1600s and early 1700s the movement, if it was a movement, became more critical of christianity. It is not a form of Atheism. Many christian activists and apologists have tried to combine the two; they are still at it. They try to adopt ‘natural law’ to THEIR sphere. Only the truly gullible buy into that.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 6:45 pm
Please post a link to a Deist church.
Marx made reference to the ancient Greeks when he laid out communism, but there was no communist movement for 2,000 years the way you are trying to portray Deism.
Since Deism was so popular in the 1600s, please cite the leading Deist preachers in America from the 1600s to the mid 1700s.
If George Washington ever abandoned Christianity for Deism, please cite when he announced this change. Compilations of his private letters, speeches and other documents have been published. I happen to prefer such primary sources, which is why I have posted primary sources.
You, on the other hand, have been posting information from unnamed secondary sources.
Sorry, primary sources trump secondary sources every time, especially when they are unnamed.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 8:38 pm
That’s your bias or ignorance of Deism speaking. Deists didn’t need a church. The basic Deist belief was that god (Deist god) started the universe and the earth going and then walked away. He(they considered god a male) did not interfere with human’s or their activities.
He didn’t answer prayers. NO miracles, no magic, no rituals needed.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 9:54 pm
Your words and Washington’s words show he was not a Deist.
You say Deists did not need a church, yet Washington not only always attended unless he was sick, he was involved in operating the ministry of both The Falls Church, Pohick Church and I have spoken of what he did for St. George’s here in Fredericksburg.
You say Deists believe God created the heavens and earth and walked away, yet Washington said God’s “providential aids can supply every human defect” and guided “every step by which they have advanced.”
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Washington never said he was a christian, perhaps he was a Deist from way back. He used Deist terms and phrases, never spoke of jesus, god or christianity. Clever perhaps? Pretending he was a christian was and is a popular mistake of history. The public still thinks he threw a dollar across the Delaware River.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 9:42 pm
I have given you a quote that you continue to avoid that is in no way Deist.
You’re just making things up at this point.
My primary sources continue to prevail until you produce superior sources on that level.
If you think Washington abandoned Christianity for some other faith then quote him saying so.
Have you never thumbed through the compendiums of his letters and other documents?
I have. One such collection is in about 20 volumes of oversized books, each is about 2 inches thick; so it’s not as if there is a lack of Washington’s writings to choose from.
Most people think he threw the dollar across the Potomac.
George Washington threw a Spanish coin across the Rappahannock River, from Ferry Farm to Fredericksburg City Dock at the end of Sophia Street, about 75 yards from where I type this.
burqa April 14th, 2015 at 8:50 pm
St. John’s Episcopal Church in Richmond was the site of Patrick Henry’s “Give me liberty or give me death” speech.
http://historicstjohnschurch.org/
Henry’s father was the first minister of St. George’s Episcopal Church here in Fredericksburg. George Washington, his brother, sister and mother attended it:
http://www.stgeorgesepiscopal.net/
George Washington and George Mason attended Pohick Church
http://www.pohick.org/history.html
Christ Church in Alexandria was attended by various Founding Fathers
http://www.historicchristchurch.org/about-us/
Aquia Episcopal Church was also attended by Founding Fathers like Washington and Madison
http://www.aquiachurch.com/history.html
George Washington was a vestryman at The Falls Church
http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2870
FFs Thomas Lee and Richard Henry Lee were vestrymen of Cople Parish, where you can visit the lovely Yeocomico Episcopal Church
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/092006/09302006/225092
John Adams, Sam Adams and John Hancock were members of Brattle Street Church in Boston
http://www.hds.harvard.edu/library/exhibits/featured-images/church-in-brattle-square-boston-massachusetts-1
A few more I don’t have links to are:
Truro Parish in Fairfax County, where George Mason was a vestryman,
Fredericksville Parish and St. Anne’s parish in Albemarle County, where Thomas Jefferson was a vestryman,
Overwharton Parish in Stafford County, Va., where Thomas Ludwell Lee was a member,
Bruton Parish in Va., where George Wythe was a vestryman
Drysdale parish in Caroline County, Va., where Edmund Pendleton was a vestryman
Chinese Democracy April 14th, 2015 at 9:11 pm
true.. I think conservatives confuse the founding fathers with Puritans or something. They couldn’t be more wrong about the “Christian nation” thing.
Its a Muslim nation in those no go zones that conservatives swear they have seen lol
In my opinion .. I wish they were Buddhists ..
They all owned slaves.. so none of them where perfect
Dwendt44 April 15th, 2015 at 12:00 am
Not all of the Founding Fathers were slave owners. Paine, Adams and others did not own slaves. Franklin sold his slaves early on and, like some other of the Founding Fathers, worked toward ending slavery.
Chinese Democracy April 15th, 2015 at 1:07 am
See that’s what I know about slave ownership! But at least I’m still better than Bachmann lol I hope my point wasn’t lost . Doesn’t matter what religion they where . . as long as gov stayed out of religion and religion stayed out of gov . This whole prayer breakfast thing is something I don’t think should be happening
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 7:56 pm
Slavery was ended in large part because of opposition that came from churches and ministers.
Here is a memoir written by one of the more prominent abolitionists, Moncure Daniel Conway, who was a minister.
The civil rights movement also had many prominent ministers such as Ralph Abernathy and Martin Luther King leading the way. Much of the movement’s activities were organized in churches and faith motivated, and sustained the movement to a large degree.
There have been religious leaders in the government since it was founded. The first speaker of the House was an ordained Lutheran minister.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 12:36 am
There were many churches that also supported slavery and used the bible endorsement of slavery to do so.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 6:30 pm
Yes indeed. We should acknowledge both if we are going to discuss history.
That there should be such difference between churches is a lesson you need to learn, for it exposes the foolishness of employing stereotypes.
As a liberal, I happen to appreciate the fact that we have always had prominent people of faith among us in massive numbers and continue to do so today.
If the handful of angry atheists around here were to have their way and drive the Christians from the Left and into the camp of the Right, they would then see continual conservative victories in every election for the rest of their lifetimes.
Bye bye Obamacare.
Bye bye affirmative action.
Bye bye Social Security.
Bye bye equality for women, gays and minorities….
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 8:16 pm
They were Christians and Deists at the same time. You do not seem to be aware what Deism was, nor do you seem to be aware when it came along.
In the following letter from Thomas Jefferson, note the usage of the word “Deism” (at the beginning of the exerpt, he is referring to Dr. Rush). I have capitalized the word to make it easier for you:
“… I had promised [158] some day to write him a letter giving him my view of the Christian system. I have reflected often on it since, & even sketched the outlines in my own mind. I should first take a general view of the moral doctrines of the most remarkable of the antient philosophers, of whose ethics we have sufficient information to make an estimate: say of Pythagoras, Epicurus, Epictetus, Socrates, Cicero, Seneca, Antoninus. I should do justice to the branches of morality they have treated well but point out the importance of those in which they are deficient. I should then take a view of the DEISM, and ethics of the Jews, and shew in what a degraded state they were, and the necessity they presented of a reformation. I should proceed to a view of the life, character & doctrines of Jesus, who sensible of the incorrectness of their ideas of the deity, and of morality, endeavored to bring them to the principles of a pure DEISM, …”
– Thomas Jefferson letter to Joseph Priestley, from Washington, April 9, 1803;
“The Papers of Thomas Jefferson Volume 40 4 March to 10 July 1803,” edited by Barbara B. Oberg (Princeton and Oxford University Press, 2013), page 157-158
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 12:34 am
Christianity and Deism are two different beliefs. You can’t be both anymore that you can be a Hindu and a Muslim at the same time.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 6:23 pm
Saying “Many of our Founding Fathers were NOT christians, they were Deists.” is like saying Obama is not a politician, he is a Democrat.”
You have latched on to a buzz word and are using it ignorantly, just like you did the other day when you latched on to “projection” after seeing it posted by OldLefty. You then tried to use the term on me, but each time exhibited the quality yourself, unknowingly.
[sigh]
If Deism was a separate faith, the Jefferson would not have referred to “the deism of the Jews” because they would not be Jews if they were Deists, according to your mistaken belief.
You also continue to avoid my question as to WHEN they began to consider Deism and adopt those beliefs.
My original point was they fought the Revolution, passed and implemented the Articles of Confederation, and then conceived and implemented the Constitution and Bill of Rights before they adopted any Deist beliefs.
HINT: The first Deist tract was not published until about 1794 and the whole movement took years after that to grow to where it became more widespread. At the same time many were being influenced by another, different religious revival that had begun before the Revolution and was going strong when Deism came along.
Dwendt44 April 20th, 2015 at 3:03 pm
John Locke’s An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1690) though not a Deist himself, was an early writing on the subject.
Other prominent Deists:
Among the Deists, Anthony Collins (1676–1729) could claim much philosophical competence;
only Conyers Middleton (1683–1750) was a really serious scholar.
The best known Deists, notably John Toland (1670–1722) and Matthew Tindal (1656–1733),
were talented publicists, clear without being deep, forceful but not subtle. …
Others, like Thomas Chubb (1679–1747), were self-educated freethinkers;
HINT: Deism has been around long before christianity even existed. It’s a way of looking at a god as just that, no angels, no devils, no miracles, no churches, no magical writings or prayer needed.
Many of the modern ‘nones’ could be considered Deists. They believe in the concept of a god, but reject organized religion and all the clap trap that comes with it.
Dwendt44 April 20th, 2015 at 3:18 pm
I should add that Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason 1794 spread Deism through much of early America. That may be the 1794 you refer to.
trees April 20th, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Why don’t you clearly define Deism for us?
Some doctrines will be useful, as will statements of faith, perhaps list the history of American Deism, it’s founder, the location of Deist churches and notable Deist pastors.
Thanks
Dwendt44 April 20th, 2015 at 2:49 pm
I’m sure you’ve read a book other than the bible, though you don’t seem to have much of a grasp on what’s in there either. Any worthwhile dictionary will have the definition of Deism. But since you asked here, It’s the belief in a god but the rejection of religion, or more specifically organized religion. No ‘revealed’ truth, no rituals needed, prayer no necessary as the Deist god, after creating the earth and the stars, walked away and doesn’t interfere in human events. Deism has been around since the ancient Greeks. Many former christians, or those raised in the christian religion come to Deism through reason, logic, and critical thinking.
Deism looks at jesus as a teacher or self styled prophet and nothing else.Jefferson went to the trouble of cutting the passages of the bible out that dealt with miracles and other supernatural events.
Obviously, at least to most of us, if you don’t believe that jesus was a deity you are not a christian. Sadly you and Burqa fall into the other category.
mea_mark April 14th, 2015 at 7:52 pm
I think our founding fathers understood that religion, more than anything else, was really just a form of primitive government based around the idea of explaining that which was not understood. Therefore there needed to be a separation of religion from state, or rather, primitive form of governance over a modern form of governance. Back then, this was a grand experiment and you really couldn’t reveal what you were really up to or thinking. I don’t think we’ll ever really know for sure what their true intent was, but there are certainly clues. In the end, I think they did a pretty good job. I just hope we can improve on it, without going backwards too far.
burqa April 14th, 2015 at 9:10 pm
Interesting points, I agree with them.
It seems that just about all the ancient governments had religion central to them. I don’t think it was until the Age of Reason came along that significant numbers of people began thinking of forming a secular government. We can see in history where some governments rebelled against the church in Rome, but they usually just wanted their own church to predominate.
It seems we find these same things around the globe in history.
This was indeed a grand experiment, and quite radical.
I think that by making it possible for many faiths to be practiced and to make way for those of little or no faith, the variety makes us a better country. I think it is a weakness for countries like Saudi Arabia to refuse to allow any but the approved state religion to be practiced.
That said, the early Christian church described in the Bible didn’t bother with government. That church fell in the lifetime of the Apostle Paul, who wrote about it.
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 11:50 pm
There were only two forms of governance in the bible, theocracy and monarchy. The divine right of kings was used to justify that monarchy, as an extension of ‘god’s plan’ on earth. that was one of the things the Founding Fathers efforts were to eliminate by founding a secular government.
The intent of many of the Founding Fathers were clear enough in their letters to others and to groups. Jefferson explicitly mentioned the ‘Separation of Church and State’ in his letter to the Baptist. Other Founding Fathers have written similarly.
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 7:46 pm
In the Bible were there any examples of a monarchy that was not also theocratic?
Dwendt44 April 15th, 2015 at 8:22 pm
Both have been tried throughout history. The priests and the Monarchs have worked to protect each other, and maintain their rule over the peons. Theocracies are in place even today. Iran for one.
Of course, in modern times, monarchs are mostly for show.
The bible does mention kings and Queens without much comment on the clergy of those rulers. King Harod’s rule was hardly theocratic.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 6:11 pm
Good call on Herod.
At various periods in the Bible there are at least 7 different forms of governance.
Suzanne McFly April 14th, 2015 at 4:50 pm
I bet she has a follow up that would be sort of like this….”and stone anyone claiming to be a Muslim.”
arc99 April 14th, 2015 at 5:40 pm
What we have here is a dramatic illustration of the difference between liberals and conservatives.
Conservative politicians as well as those who vote for them and populate forums like this one are quite prone to making up absolute fiction to portray the beliefs of people with whom they disagree. Nowhere do they ever provide a citation where the person actually states the opinion they criticize.
Liberals on the other hand, use the precise words and deeds of those we criticize. So when we opine that the real agenda of these so-called religious freedom laws is not religious freedom at all, but are intended to provide preferred treatment in the law for Christianity, in direct violation of the Constitution, we do not have to make up any fiction.
We simply point to real life examples such as this one.
Now if there are people who believe that Christianity should be given special priority in the law above all other religions, you are certainly entitled to hold your unConstitutional beliefs.
But denying the real agenda is pointless. As this story illustrates, it is not about religious freedom. It is about favoring Christianity in government which is completely contrary to both the first amendment as well as article 6 of the United States Constitution.
burqa April 14th, 2015 at 6:32 pm
We-ell, there’s a couple people around here who have repeatedly made stuff up about me, and they are liberals.
But to your larger point, this is indeed unConstitutional and ridiculous. It’s dopey stuff like this that led me to come up with the Right Wing Dunce Contest.
And arc99, I would add to your last point that I think there is a lack of confidence that should not be there in those who believe. The early Christian church spread like wildfire throughout Asia Minor while it was under the iron boot of Rome. They flourished and did not bother with politics, but were concerned with matters on a much higher plane, knowing earthly things would be taken care of in the process.
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 7:18 pm
I wouldn’t use the term ‘wildfire’. the Jesus cult grew rapidly to be sure, but it was up against a Pagan religion that was fading almost as quickly. It took about 300 years before the power of Rome suddenly shifted to the Holy Roman Empire. Once it did, it started force ably converting Roman citizens the the christian faith. That included converting at the point of a sword. It carried that to the ends of the Roman Empire across most of Europe.
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 7:42 pm
I have not read that the religion of Rome was “fading quickly” in the 1st century.
Please give more details.
The Christian faith of the Bible pretty much ended during the life of the Apostle Paul and he describes it.
CandideThirtythree April 17th, 2015 at 10:13 am
You haven’t read much of anything judging by your posts.
The whole ‘living gods’ thing had fallen out of favor by the first century…which was NOT called the first century until about 300 years later BTdubs. Religion only received lip service by the movers and shakers of the time, they were called ‘household gods’ at that point, no temples required. Democracy was in its infancy and the senate was more important than the gods.
That is until Constantine hatched a plan to grab all the power and might that a peasant army of religious zealots could afford him. With the help of Paul, he ushered in the dark ages with a flourish.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 6:08 pm
When roads are lined for miles with people crucified for their faith, it is evidence that faith was taken quite seriously.
In Rome, priestesses still had much power and Roman emperors had entrails read and other steps taken to be sure moves they contemplated would be acceptable to the gods.
In the first century, the major temples were still getting large amounts of money from the state, too. They were still keeping various feasts and paying honors to their gods in the fitrst century.
Today certain religions have what are referred to as “household gods” and they are taken quite seriously.
Paul did not help Constantine. He could not have since he died a couple hundred years before Constantine came along.
Please do not conflate the 4th century with the first.
CandideThirtythree April 15th, 2015 at 12:47 am
No one has to make up anything about you, you are always stepping in the deep doo doo all by your little lonesome.
burqa April 15th, 2015 at 7:39 pm
Har.
One false claim that still draws a grin from me was when it was said a was a far Right winger.
Since you used a universal statement, only one example is needed to defeat your claim.
CandideThirtythree April 16th, 2015 at 7:45 am
You are a RWNJ troll, why are you here? Everyone here knows what you are, do you just get your jollies by making people hate you?
jasperjava April 17th, 2015 at 4:45 am
Anybody who has known burqa for any length of time knows that he is not a RWNJ troll. He’s a liberal, a fine Southern gentleman, and an unapologetic Christian. Lots of Christians are liberals. Martin Luther King was a Christian and a liberal.
If you hate burqa, you deprive yourself. I have sometimes felt annoyed at his sensitivity to attacks on Christianity (Christ Himself said that we are blessed if we suffer hate because of Him) but I’d rather have burqa and well-meaning Christians in my corner than atheists who misdirect their hate and lose allies in the process.
Finally, if you’re going to use Spock as your avatar, work on your logic skills. Logic dictates that you should gather some facts before you make assumptions.
fahvel April 17th, 2015 at 5:54 am
way to go J!!!
CandideThirtythree April 17th, 2015 at 9:50 am
You people are so easily distracted, that avatar is a magnet for extremists comments on every forum, what is it about that simple picture that causes you to froth at the mouth?
Defend him if you want to but the dog whistles he blows are no less shrill just because you can’t personally hear them.
With ‘burka’, Every single comment in the affirmative is followed by a negative, in the rules of debate that cancels out the affirmative and makes the negative the true intent.
I am making no assumptions, it is simply the rules of engagement of
public discourse and critical language awareness and it has been such since ancient times.
burka’s is a play at subterfuge and chicanery , a very dishonest ploy and I hate dishonesty.
burqa April 17th, 2015 at 5:57 pm
Thanks jasper. This is the second time someone made that accusation and I giggled.
God grief, I logged on when Bush was president and some nube comes along with his name-calling and not knowing even the most basic things about other people here.
If one is going to try the condescension act, one should have substance behind it and we’re not really seeing that.
And you’re right on the logic.
The poor dear does not realize when primary sources trump the secondary sources he offers, nor does he understand that name-calling is the equivalent of waving the white flag. It is an admission one can’t attack the argument, so one is only left to attack the person.
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 11:43 pm
The christian activists are getting really sophisticated in their use of wording and phrasing so that their presentations ‘look’ fair and all encompassing, but really have the goal of getting preferential, of not exclusivity, in government operations and actions.
Dwendt44 April 14th, 2015 at 7:23 pm
Amazingly the law of the land says that this country was not based on the christian religion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKA4JBesB4
Larry Schmitt April 14th, 2015 at 7:28 pm
Betty Bowers, America’s real first lady.
Ronald L April 14th, 2015 at 8:18 pm
I’m a devout Christian and I am a strong supporter of a strict separation of church and state.
Its a win-win. It is good for the church and good for the state.
tracey marie April 14th, 2015 at 11:33 pm
sad that you have to defend the truth about the separation, talk to your christians, straighten them out
fahvel April 15th, 2015 at 3:19 am
churches are a waste of precious space on an already too crowded and confused planet – religion is what has made the earth an evolving piece of garbage rather than a true garden of eden.
RenderMan May 6th, 2015 at 8:46 pm
Okay, first thing: Not all churches are a waste of space. As someone who would accept a god, but sincerely HOPES that the Abrahamic God doesn’t exist because of the “evidence” found in the Bible, I still go in and sit in churches from time to time. The problem isn’t in the churches, because the churches have a role to play in society. It gives people who can’t stand the thought of nothingness after death hope for the future, solid grounds in their morals (though this is often blown out of proportion and bastardized), and a sort of extended family to bond with.
No, the problem is in the people, NOT the church. The church doesn’t decide that you must donate 10% of your income as tithe, the people do, and they go with it because what God-fearing man wouldn’t? I recently attended a church where a man said that your tithe doesn’t have to be your money, it could be your time helping others out who are in unfortunate situations. And guess what? That was the FIRST time I’ve ever heard anyone say that. I slapped $20 in the basket anyway and thanked them for their time.
You can find all sorts of great people in churches, it’s mainly why I attend them on occasion (along with enjoying a good Bible story every once in a while. Yes, you read that right). But I will be glad to concede that there are multitudes of belligerent, hate-mongering Christians out there as well, just looking to encroach upon others just because they feel divinely justified in doing so. Your statement is just about as wrong as “God hates fags”. Huh, there’s a thought. You seem like the antithesis of WBC. Humorous.
But in all seriousness, if you think Fundie Christians, or even just proper Christians, are judgmental, you may want to look in the mirror and reread your sentence, because that very statement you posted may be a qualifier for the Epitome of Egregious Exclamations award.
ExPFCWintergreen April 14th, 2015 at 8:44 pm
You know how “Constitutional Conservatives” are all about telling us what the Founders intended? Here’s some interesting intent: “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion” (Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796). This is a document that was ratified by President John Adams (Founder), serving with Vice-President Thomas Jefferson (Founder, author of the Declaration of Independence), and that was unanimously approved by a Senate in which sat 3 signers of the Constitution, 12 former members of the Continental Congress, and 21 veterans of the American Revolution, including 2 who had been aides-de-camp to George Washington. So I’m going to go WAAAAYYY out on a limb here and suggest these guys more or less knew what their “Founders’ Intent” was, inasmuch as all the evidence available tells us (a) they actually *were* the Founders and (b) seem generally to have known what it was they intended.
fahvel April 15th, 2015 at 3:18 am
oh c’mon, every one knows they were all closet weirdos who thought they could create something wonderful – look whatcha got!
Dwendt44 April 15th, 2015 at 4:39 pm
That treaty was negotiated under President Washington, ratified after Adams was sworn in. We have the Federalist Papers, letters and other writings of the Founders to go by, and their intent is clear. This was meant to be a secular government under a secular Constitution.
Bunya April 14th, 2015 at 9:40 pm
And well they should. After all, Christopher Columbus didn’t come to America to rape, enslave and slaughter hundreds of Native Americans simply for the sheer enjoyment of torturing idol worshiping heathens. No, he also came to propagate Christianity.
“I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country
and shall make war against you … and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church … and
shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and
resist and contradict him.” [SH66]”
mfr4 April 16th, 2015 at 8:23 pm
It was OK because the natives didn’t have souls and apparently the christians don’t either.
Warman1138 April 14th, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Myths and legends.
Ronald L April 14th, 2015 at 10:35 pm
You should consider reading some Joseph Campbell on myth.
As a religious person, myself, I don’t apologize for finding truth in mythology.
CandideThirtythree April 15th, 2015 at 12:40 am
It already does.
rg9rts April 15th, 2015 at 1:26 am
I’m sure her Jewish constituents are over joyed with that news
jybarz April 15th, 2015 at 8:18 am
She should prove she’s a Christian.
With such un-Christian thoughts and belief she has…
… I’m sure Jesus Christ will be very embarrased and disappointed of her.
BillTheCat45 April 16th, 2015 at 6:05 pm
BZZZZT! Nope, wrong, you lose crazy lady. Never was and never will be a Chrsitian nation. Tough luck.
allison1050 April 17th, 2015 at 10:31 am
Well now we now have another that hasn’t read the history of this once great nation. This is something she should have learned in grammar school.
Dwendt44 April 17th, 2015 at 11:50 am
Religious schools teach that this IS a christian nation based on christian principles. That and christians OWN IT, and they want it back.
Pumping that propaganda into little children since first grade means it’s hard to correct once they become adults.
Jeffrey Samuels April 17th, 2015 at 2:29 pm
this person needs to either be removed from office or forced to have a fresher in American History and the constitution.